Ep. 181 - Radical Obedience
Welcome to this week's episode of tell me more. We're talking about a very simple upfront, it is what it is text of Abraham sacrificing Isaac, and we get into just the, the realities of suffering and testing. And it's a good conversation, and we're glad you're here.
Speaker 2:Okay. We are back in the studio making another episode of Sell Me More. We are all here. I have significantly dressed it down compared to the two of you. So if you're listening, I am wearing a flannel shirt, not a suit, like these other two, but they have duties today that I do not.
Speaker 2:That's right. This afternoon is Kurt Schnellenbach's. Yeah. So pray for the Schnellenbach family.
Speaker 1:Try to honor him, honor God, honor the family, all of it.
Speaker 3:So this is Yeah. Yep. Time church member, I guess, city engineer for the city of Arlington for a long time, public works director, civil engineer, A and M.
Speaker 2:That's awesome.
Speaker 3:Great guy. Good life.
Speaker 1:Is that why you got your burgundy tie on?
Speaker 3:Well, know, just a little shout out to him. Well, not know what's interesting? Kurt Stellenbaugh, when he a little boy, his dad was stationed at Schofield. Schofield is what it's called. He was at Pearl Harbor as a
Speaker 2:little boy when Pearl Harbor How
Speaker 3:about that? Kurt was. Is that something? Wow.
Speaker 1:That is something. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's I mean, how many people do you know who are physically at Pearl Harbor on Pearl Harbor Day? I only know one. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I think that's it.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Wow. So kinda shaped his life, but a great man. And, he and his wife, Trixie, long time folks here. And, yeah, we're grateful for them, and, we'll try to honor him today.
Speaker 3:So here we are.
Speaker 2:Here we are.
Speaker 3:And then we're and then we're we're getting ready to gear up for Rome. Oh. Addison's going with me.
Speaker 2:Well, this podcast is sponsored by First Fabulous Arlington.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Let's just hop in to the promo. So the Rome trip starts technically February 1.
Speaker 3:That's correct.
Speaker 1:You're right about that? February 2, I can't remember that. But you'll head out
Speaker 3:Yeah, Cindy and I leave Sunday.
Speaker 1:After you preach on Sunday.
Speaker 3:Yeah, after we preach, weather permitting, and we're going to our global center in Spain.
Speaker 2:Very nice.
Speaker 3:Spend some time with our two families there. And then we'll head over to Rome, meet Kurt and Kim and get geared up. Addison's coming this time and Kyle, Chelsea. We're going to actually do
Speaker 2:You're gonna document the trip.
Speaker 3:Yeah. This is kind of a video driven lecture series that we can bring back here for people who maybe never gotten to go to Rome or even the ones who have been to Rome. Just a just kind of an on the ground take of church history and biblical history and the ancient Rome and all the way through the Reformation.
Speaker 1:And as Kurt says, I'm not sure if I'm gonna get it quite right, but the Rome trip runs on a one year contract.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:There's no guarantee of Yeah. The next And so, kinda catch what catch can, capture all of it while we know we can.
Speaker 3:We may run it for ten
Speaker 1:more years. It's really, we don't know.
Speaker 2:But let's make a video
Speaker 1:while we know and we have the right people there. That's right.
Speaker 3:Because we had one of our church members back in the day, doctor Richardson, his wife had died with cancer, and they were just our best friends, really, Janet, his wife, and Cindy. And and then he met another lady. She was a nurse at the hospital, Doctor. Richardson's cardiologist. And she really came to a better understanding of her face.
Speaker 3:She was reared as a Catholic, but became much more, I guess, cognizant of it all in Sunday Sunday School class. And so I baptized Diana. And then Jim and Diana wanted to get married, and so we did a ceremony for them here in our chapel, me and Mike Stedham. But Jim wanted to surprise Diana, she's a lifelong Catholic. And he said, would you do kind of a blessing of our wedding ceremony at Saint Peter's Basilica in The Vatican?
Speaker 3:Sweet.
Speaker 1:No big deal.
Speaker 3:So he flew me and Cindy and Josiah and Jim and Diana and Jim's daughter, Meredith. And we went and spent a week in Rome. You know, I'm a church history guy. I'd never been to Rome. So I've been to Paris.
Speaker 3:I've been to London. I've been to several places. Never been to Rome. And, man, when I got to Rome, was like, oh my goodness. It's everything that You were having a high
Speaker 1:sign in. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3:You've got to be kidding me. Just go, oh, there's I've read about that. Oh, there's that. So you were,
Speaker 1:like, in the candy shop?
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness. Taking so many notes, so many photos. So I get home, and and back then, I'd come back from a sabbatical few years before that in, California, and we decided to start a young adult college ministry called The Journey. And it had really grown by then on Sunday nights. And, so we probably had a 100 and something kids coming to it of all type just all kinds of folks.
Speaker 3:And Remy was helping us back in those days in our college ministry. And, and so I was teaching Romans. So I came back with all of these photos of, you know, all of this. And so Ramey just said, well, why don't you take us to Rome? Take some take these college kids to Rome.
Speaker 3:And I said, I'm so not doing that. I know. I do I am not a no. I'm not a tour guide. And she said, well so she talked to David McDermott about it and said, we'll we'll take care of all that if if you would just do these lectures or something in Rome.
Speaker 3:And I was like, well, I might do that. And so then Kurt we got Kurt and Kim to go. And so we took, don't know, 25 college students. And great time, terrible weather. It was so cold.
Speaker 3:Went in early January, so cold and rainy. But man, they were so resilient. And we had so much fun. And we get home, all told their parents about it. So next thing you know, their parents are saying, hey, why don't you take us to Rome?
Speaker 3:And so Kurt and I met, and Kurt said, all right, I'll tell you what, I'll help. I'll organize it, and, let me let me do a little homework. He comes back. We, we kind of, you know, consulted the Rome theologian Rick Steves. Rick Steves kinda got his guides guidebook on Rome.
Speaker 3:Find worse. And you could.
Speaker 1:The kids got it.
Speaker 3:So we found our hotel. It's a hotel that he recommended.
Speaker 1:Was there a week, Steve? How about that?
Speaker 3:And so Kurt called them and just said, look. This is kinda what we wanna do. It's somewhat centrally located. So I said, So we went and had a great time. And and to be honest with you, I really thought that was it.
Speaker 3:We had a wonderful time. I take a group of college kids.
Speaker 1:Through your parents. Done. Done.
Speaker 3:Check check. Good. Get home. Everybody else keeps knocking. Oh, man.
Speaker 3:Next thing you know, let's do it again.
Speaker 2:And How many trips have you taken now?
Speaker 3:I was just telling Addison, I've done some side gigs in Rome.
Speaker 1:How many
Speaker 2:first five to Arlington trips have you
Speaker 3:taken? I think this will be the I think it's the fourteenth,
Speaker 2:I think. Okay.
Speaker 1:Like a curtain deep dive. Open enrollment.
Speaker 3:I think
Speaker 2:you should shoot for fifteen.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, I've done 20 tours of Rome. This will be my twentieth tour of Rome because I've done some side private tours. I just do these I do them usually before our group all shows up. So just various people have asked me to do it.
Speaker 3:But, yeah, I think we're I think it was, like, 2013 when we did that. I can't remember now. I've forgotten. And, when we started 2012, whatever. But it's been awesome.
Speaker 3:Stay in the same hotel. It's a little family owned boutique hotel.
Speaker 1:Has it changed at all in the last fifteen years?
Speaker 3:You know, a little bit. The Internet's gotten better.
Speaker 1:Like, maybe a new comforter every once in a while, that kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Well, Cindy actually, a few years ago, bought a pillow there in Rome. And so, because she there's a certain type of pillow that she sleeps on, and so they keep it for her. Every year keep it. They keep it everywhere when we get to she's the only person that uses it. They they told us they have it locked up with her name on it.
Speaker 3:So we'll get to our room, and it'll have a little note from them,
Speaker 1:dear to and 60 well, maybe three hundred sixty days.
Speaker 3:Yeah. They
Speaker 1:just keep it in a closet.
Speaker 3:They do. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They love you for her.
Speaker 3:Hola Maria is the owner there.
Speaker 1:You stick with them. Stick with them.
Speaker 3:So but, yeah, they're great.
Speaker 1:You can't get that at the Hilton.
Speaker 3:No. They have usually a lot of times, Cindy's been coming in from Africa, and so they will let her come in, you know, early and pick her up at the airport and store all her luggage from Africa and all that. I mean, they're just
Speaker 2:They're so great. Yep. People. You know? And I like you kinda love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So we've we've had a great time there. We've learned a lot. You know what's funny? Was this morning, was praying just about the week and life and all that.
Speaker 3:I told the Lord, I just thanked him because I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, which you would not think would be an ethnically diverse immigrant community. But I grew up on the West Side Of Birmingham in an area called Little Italy. And because our side of town helped provide for US Steel's labor force. That's one of the largest iron deposits in the world.
Speaker 2:So It's a large statue there called the Vulcan? Vulcan. That's right. Largest iron statue in the world, actually. And
Speaker 1:That would make sense.
Speaker 3:So but when the Bethlehem Steel process got invented, they were US steel didn't realize they could actually do this. But they needed to be in a place where the mines were close to them. And so Birmingham just happened to have all that. And so these immigrant communities came in the late nineteenth century from Italy, Poland, and I guess, Slavic people, Ireland. And so that's where my parents moved when the war broke out because daddy went to work for US Steel.
Speaker 3:But so I grew up in this community of Slavs and Tex and Poles and Italians and so
Speaker 2:all these Historically Catholic populations?
Speaker 3:Unbelievably Catholic. A very, very committed Catholic community. And so going to Mass with my buddies and course it was all everything was in Latin. Nobody knew what was going on, but we didn't we didn't care. You know?
Speaker 3:It was just we just loved each other. And then when I got to seminary, ended up getting a PhD in church history. And because I never in a million years dreamed that my Italian background and my church history interest would all merge together to turn into this kind of ministry. So I still told the Lord this morning, thank you for all that. It's just interesting how that's worked out.
Speaker 3:So I feel very comfortable in Rome because growing up, I'd see all these little grandparents out walking in the evening, and they all spoke Italian. You know? Love the grandparents, most of them didn't speak English. And but they all knew me. You know?
Speaker 3:And excuse me. So I'm walking through the streets of Rome. First time I did it, I told Cindy, I said, I can't believe I feel here. And she was like, well, duh. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:This is
Speaker 3:what you've been seeing your whole life. You know? I said, that's true. And Sweet. So, yeah.
Speaker 3:So here we are. Is that funny?
Speaker 2:God wastes nothing. So we got the Rome trip. We were in full swing on mid week. It's not too late to join in.
Speaker 1:I know we just got started.
Speaker 2:Yeah. This is the last week you can start perspectives though. So if you want to do perspectives this is the last week to join.
Speaker 3:Got a big group. We're a large
Speaker 2:group. Eight of our college students have signed up and committed which And is so it's not too late. That does have a different run time. It's six to nine. It's longer.
Speaker 2:It is longer than the other mid weekends. It's pretty intense though. Is. Expectations. There's some reading.
Speaker 1:It costs.
Speaker 2:It does have a cost. It's
Speaker 3:a real blast.
Speaker 2:If you are a college student at First Baptist, it's free for you. Yes. We're paying for For
Speaker 1:would be more. Yeah. Grief share and divorce care start officially tomorrow night. Grocery and divorce care. Is that right?
Speaker 1:There is a depression group that's gonna start again but not till the first Wednesday in February. So we got two more weeks on that I guess.
Speaker 2:So and then we've got pickleball, crochet corner, the break, the bridge.
Speaker 1:And Ryan Chandler is working hard on small groups. Mhmm. You may wanna email him to get Yeah.
Speaker 2:They have a progressive rollout. Not every small group is launching at the same time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it might not be the best to just walk up and
Speaker 3:try to
Speaker 1:find one. But get a little info on that and you you too could be part of a Wednesday night small group. So
Speaker 3:You could. There's a lot happening.
Speaker 2:So many wonderful things.
Speaker 3:Pastor's bible study started back. It is.
Speaker 1:Great attendance last week. We had 80.
Speaker 2:That's so good.
Speaker 1:90? I can't remember. It was very full.
Speaker 3:Was not was in it was in the nineties. I think and we were planning for fewer.
Speaker 1:55. We're we're planning for 55.
Speaker 3:Brand new. We
Speaker 1:don't you just can't know. I think we had almost 90 Yeah. Participants. Maybe with staff more. But, anyway, it's great.
Speaker 3:It's fun.
Speaker 1:Anyone is welcome to that. I think that's a great way to be intentional about not just the bible but the people.
Speaker 2:And if you work and you can't make it
Speaker 1:We stream it.
Speaker 2:We stream it on Facebook and
Speaker 3:you can
Speaker 2:watch it after the fact. So it is available. Mhmm. But you can find that one on Facebook. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And I think it does make it to YouTube but not Yeah. The same
Speaker 3:I think so. YouTube. You can
Speaker 1:have me on that. I don't know.
Speaker 3:And
Speaker 1:What else? There's just a lot going on.
Speaker 3:Daily bible readings devotionals at kurt.org
Speaker 2:daily bible readings. Yeah. It's really good.
Speaker 1:You can do that. You can subscribe. Been trying to help people get subscribed.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know. We're here to help.
Speaker 1:It's harder than it looks sometimes. Mhmm. So And sometimes it's easy. Can't know. You can't.
Speaker 1:Well
Speaker 2:And you know, we continue to come and worship together on Sunday mornings. We do. And there's this guy who preaches a
Speaker 3:sermon about that.
Speaker 1:How about it?
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Yeah. He preached.
Speaker 1:What a text.
Speaker 2:Just one of the simplest, least written about, least contentious texts that anyone has ever read.
Speaker 1:Kinda like a, you know, you hear it at weddings. It's just really, it's one of those. You know? But,
Speaker 3:you know, if you're gonna read your bible, you gotta walk you gotta pass through Genesis 22.
Speaker 2:Nothing like a little child sacrifice on a Sunday morning.
Speaker 3:Was gonna say. Just kind of, set the tone.
Speaker 1:I love it. And you I think you navigated it well. Have you gotten a of feedback on that one? I have. I feel like it's one of those
Speaker 3:I have. Have that people would talk about with you. I've heard from a lot of a lot of folks that are going through tests, a lot of folks that are concerned about family members that they feel are being tested and wanna help but don't really know what to do. And sometimes you just gotta you just have to be supportive, you you can't always you can't do it for anyone. It's always hard.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Particularly if you have the wherewithal sometimes to control that. That's always a challenge for those of us who want people to do well. But that old story that I think I first heard it, Man, I'm trying to think of when it was. It was years ago.
Speaker 3:Jess Moody shared that story in a seminary chapel who's a pastor from a generation ago about the little you know, having the cocoon, is that what you call it? You know, whatever the butterfly's in. And he was a little boy, he saw
Speaker 2:I think
Speaker 1:you're a naturalist.
Speaker 3:You can help us. Was Well, watching he was watching it, and it was time for the butterfly to come out, and and he just he's gonna help himself. He took some scissors and just snipped it, you know, because he wanted
Speaker 2:it to And
Speaker 3:so the butterfly got out, but it just fell over on the ground because it didn't, you know, it didn't force all the fluid out of its wing. In other words, the the pain of the exit is what makes the butterfly live and fly, and he didn't know that. And so he was so sad. And, you know, he's holding this dead butterfly, talking to his parents, and they were like, you can't interrupt the pain. You know?
Speaker 3:You've got to let the let this Yep.
Speaker 2:The process happen.
Speaker 3:I thought about that a lot, that sometimes it's hard because if you want to help someone else when they're going through a time of testing, you know, that's great. But you can't snip the opening. I mean, that's just that's just not gonna work. God has designed this thing sometimes for us to, it's like, Derek Kidner. I love Derek Kidner.
Speaker 3:He's an he's an old commentator on the
Speaker 2:scripture. Scripture. For those of you who watch at home, I think Derek Kinder is one of your most cited
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:People.
Speaker 3:He is. I I just love him. He's a He writes these little concise commentaries that that but he can say more in a paragraph
Speaker 2:than good economy of language.
Speaker 1:Well, even your quote I'm looking at your Eugene I have the notes. Your Eugene Peterson quote, which is phenomenal.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:But it's probably 12 lines long. The Kidner quote is one and a half. Exactly. He's just a concise dude, and it's lovely.
Speaker 3:Mean And it's how he is, you know? But one of the things he says was that when God in this moment, he rings every lesson out of the experience. I mean, it's all the way to raise your hand, get ready to strike your son. And, Kidner just said the Lord's just he's just ringing the last drop out of him. I thought, what a great what a great image.
Speaker 3:And so, see, I just think that we we all go through these tests, and I think that's why this particular passage speaks powerful to people. But it's a puzzling It is. Passage because it it kinda flies in the face of everything we think we know about God. Yeah. And, and that's what Peterson has
Speaker 2:a lot to say about And so as we think about the text and what you preached, I think there are two directions for us to go this morning. We didn't talk about this before. So this is me setting your course for the podcast live.
Speaker 1:I submit.
Speaker 2:One is pastoral and just navigating just the lived experience. And the other I think is more, how do you continue to grapple with a text like this? This is not the only difficult passage in the bible so when you come to a difficult passage like this, how do you read through it? So let's maybe tackle the pastoral side first because some of the things you said, I think are really helpful and beneficial and I wanna make sure that we understand them clearly. So, you know, how do you know if you are taking a self centered approach through your suffering, kind of living in your bitterness?
Speaker 2:The example I think of for this, if we could borrow from another bible story is, you know, Naomi in the book of Ruth, everything terrible happens to her. She basically goes home, changes her name to Mara which means bitter. Basically she goes home and she just says, call me bitter because God has been bitter to me. Right. So there's that approach.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. So how do
Speaker 2:you know if you're it's about me Mhmm. Making the bitterness your identity
Speaker 1:my bitterness.
Speaker 2:Versus you're a human person with real emotions and feelings and sometimes the testing is other people have wounded you and hurt you. So how do you know if you're just feeling natural human feelings that are just par for the course of human experience versus making it a self centered approach? I've got pastoral care in the pastor.
Speaker 3:That's a great question.
Speaker 1:Good one.
Speaker 3:You know, as I shared Sunday morning, you know, I think when I the way I look at it is I tried to lay it out Sunday morning. I think you when you find yourself in a season of testing, I do think you have these two paths. And they I think Sunday morning I tried to really separate them for the sake of argument to try to explain how different they are. There's obviously some overlapping and intersecting because we're human. We're not perfect.
Speaker 3:But I do think that all of us probably when the test is new and things are we're experiencing them for the first time, the shock of it, of the loss, whatever it may be, I think that it's okay in those moments to just bear the brunt of it emotionally and spiritually and in in every other way in your life.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The primary genre of the Psalms is lament.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So there's it's okay to I think that's where we all begin.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And God can handle
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 1:That.
Speaker 3:That, I would say, it's it's like sometimes I've said to y'all, I think it's okay to get mad. It's not okay to stay mad. That's how I feel about this. It's okay to express your shock and your lament and to have a little bit of self absorption when it first happens. But if that's where you linger and if that's all you do, I think that's really where you begin to realize the difference.
Speaker 3:Because as I said Sunday morning, you get hurt, you get self absorbed, and then you I think the the one thing I would probably look for with someone is if all you do is just focus on the test all the time. If it's just the prevailing thought in your life and every conversation somehow gets to that. Well, that is when you know, to me, you've crossed over a line. And you're maybe going to miss the very reason you're in the test because it's not really about the test itself. Know, God is after a relationship with us, and he wants us to learn to trust him more deeply and to love him more deeply.
Speaker 3:And and so as I said Sunday morning, you know, theologians grapple with the knowledge of God. We've talked about that a little bit in here. And and I I fall on the side of I don't believe we add to God's knowledge. I just I just don't believe that. I think God is completely sovereign in the sense that he knows everything.
Speaker 3:But there's a difference. Theologians draw the difference between cognitive knowledge and experiential knowledge. Yeah. This idea that he loves to experience things with us even though he already knows, if I can say respectfully of God cognitively. And so there's something about Abraham's willingness to be obedient and God walking through that obedience with Abraham.
Speaker 3:There's just something about that. I think that's the way God's just designed this thing. And so, know, God knows what we're going to do, but for some reason, he desires to experience it with us. And so when everything's focused on the test, you know, it's all you want to talk about. It's like, you know, I'm I'm getting ready to go to Rome.
Speaker 3:And there's so many things we talk about in Rome, but one of the topics that we usually touch upon in Rome is just how the church grappled with some of the more serious questions early on theologically. Like for example, how do you explain the relationship between the Father, Son, and the Spirit? What words do you use? We've talked a little bit about that theologically through the years since you've been here. The theologue praise God for Greek.
Speaker 3:Can I just say that? That God gave us the Greek language because they were able to go outside the scripture and find language they could use that help explain some of the complexities of scripture without violating scripture. And I think that was I think it was done very well. But one of the questions was, you know, what is the word of God eternal? You know, is Jesus, God's son eternal?
Speaker 3:Arius decided, He's a created He's the first created being, obviously. But supposedly, when Arius was alive, he made up these little songs that you could kind of memorize. And he took like the jingles from the shipyard or things
Speaker 1:The big art.
Speaker 3:Little digness. And then he would kind of stick his theology in it. What several theologians have written about, the historians actually about it, and one historian I read a while back just said that every conversation, it seems like at that moment in history, was about the nature of this relationship. You could be talking about anything, and the next thing you know, you're gonna end up talking about Jesus and God. Well, if that's how you are about your test, every conversation you turn it toward, well, this is what I'm going through right now.
Speaker 3:Well, this is what I'm experiencing right now. And and that's all
Speaker 1:you just Yeah. It becomes a lens and a posture.
Speaker 3:Everything. You're gonna help That's when you know, okay. Mhmm. You've kinda lost your way here. And that's what I would encourage you to turn your attention to God.
Speaker 2:Well, so if I'm hearing you correctly, there's a difference between experiencing pain as just an emotional state which is kind of a natural human reaction. We have emotions. If you get into the neuroscience of it, you actually experience your emotions before you have rational thoughts about them. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I believe that to
Speaker 1:be That feels right. That feels right.
Speaker 2:So there's a difference between just experiencing emotions about your experience versus making the pain or the bitterness or the hardship the central piece of your identity. Correct. And that's what you're trying to distinguish. One is you're a human and you're going to have a natural set of experiences. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:The other and the way the way that you shouldn't go is don't make those the cornerstone of who you are as a person.
Speaker 3:That's right. And I think too, it you know, the Lord designed designed us to live in community. So you
Speaker 1:need Mhmm.
Speaker 3:That that small group that you can share this burden with and and that can help you think through. Okay. Because that, you know, I I shared a a personal experience Sunday morning a time years ago before I ever met any of y'all when I went through a huge test in my life. And I did get absorbed by it. And it it was just it's like it's all I wanted to talk about.
Speaker 3:And I didn't even, at the time, I don't know that I realized it. It's just that I just invited everybody into it. And so we were on a trip one time to, I think I told some post Sunday morning where some folks came and asked me about it. I can't remember if we were in Chattanooga or Gatlinburg, but we were somewhere, you know, one of these little resort towns there in Tennessee with the kids. And I was just I I was just overwhelmed with it all.
Speaker 3:So Cindy took this photo of me and let waited a while, and she showed it to me. And it was just I just looked really miserable, you know? And Cindy said, I just want you to know that this is this is not the Dennis Wiles that I'm no. But this is what I'm living with right now.
Speaker 1:That's like holding up a mirror, isn't
Speaker 3:it? Yeah. And I looked at I said, well, I was doing was being miserable. Yeah. You know?
Speaker 3:And she said, yeah. And your family was over here playing, doing what you're normally in the middle of because you're so much a part of that. And that was the beginning of a wake up call for me to realize, okay, I have made my whole I've made this thing my entire life. And there's really more in my life than this one thing. And I'd I'd not even begun to ask the question, what is God trying to teach me?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Mhmm. Because I at that point, I'm honest enough to say, I don't think I cared. I just want him to get rid
Speaker 1:of it. Yeah. That's really not step one.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Usually. I just want him to get rid of it. And so, eventually, the Lord moved me off of my way. I found my way to his way and I learned some things about God and God shaped me in a way.
Speaker 3:He shepherded me through it, and then he shaped me and changed me. I'm a different person because of that. I do think I learned the lesson I was supposed to learn, and I still call it to mind. Yeah. In my prayer time, I'll still thank him for it.
Speaker 3:I just think that when you get to that pastorally, not just us as pastors, church family members who are pastoring and shepherding people, we can't take their pain from them. That's just not going to happen. But what we can do is come alongside them and support them and pray for them to find their way on the way of Jesus. Right. That's really how I think we
Speaker 2:can help. Well, think this is how it intersects with the text too is it's really easy to forget that both in Genesis, God is the main character of the story but God is actually the main character of all the stories. And so I think
Speaker 1:My story.
Speaker 2:There are a few ways and I think you highlighted this. By the way, there's a great little book called Misreading Scripture with Western Western Eyes. Check it out. It's actually a pretty approachable read.
Speaker 1:I think I'm probably pretty good reading them. I think I'd probably read it pretty accurately.
Speaker 2:Probably.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I had to I had to read that book from my seminar.
Speaker 1:I read it pure I read it eyes. Pure unbiased eyes. Mhmm. So Thanks for the recommendation but I think I'm good.
Speaker 2:But I mean even just I'm messing everybody just bringing so much It's a good book.
Speaker 1:Know about.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well And so like I even think about the word test. Mhmm. That word has so, such a strong connotation in our culture. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You think test that well that's something I can pass or I can fail. Right. So a test is meant to reveal the information inside my brain. Do I have it or do I not have it? Am I gonna get an a or am I gonna get a f?
Speaker 2:Maybe I'll get a c. So that when we think test, we're thinking this like pass fail Mhmm. Binary that like Abraham's getting a grade Mhmm. From God. And that's just like the word in Hebrew is nesah and it's this it's almost this apocalyptic word of uncovering Mhmm.
Speaker 2:The reality. Mhmm. It's the thing that kinda pulls back Right. Who identity. It's not about identity.
Speaker 2:So this is the testing of Abraham is a revelation about identity. Who is God first and foremost because he's the main character of the story Mhmm. And who is Abraham. Mhmm. And so it's not necessarily this past fail thing that when we hear the word test Mhmm.
Speaker 2:That's not what the text means. Mhmm. They weren't taking standardized tests at this point in history.
Speaker 3:And it did reveal things about God. Mean, know, I think for Abraham, if he's put everything in just the promises of God and not the very presence of God, well then he's to not do this because all the promises of God are in that little boy. Yep. They all hinge on Isaac. I think God shows us that he wants us to love him first.
Speaker 3:That's one of the things I learned in this It's about him, not about what he's promised to do for us or what we get from knowing him. It's just knowing him.
Speaker 1:It's a tough shift.
Speaker 3:And I love, you know, Abraham, you know, Eugene Peterson's chapter on Abraham in his book, The Jesus Way, he just reminds us that it's been a long journey for Abraham. You know, he's it's been forty years in the making by the time he gets to this. Yes. He's seen a lot. And he's and he's he's quote unquote failed a little bit here and there along the way.
Speaker 3:He's learned some things. But he's learned the difference between acquiring and receiving. And I think that's a pretty valuable lesson. It is. If God is there for you to acquire things or pick whatever it is, you've created a God in your own image.
Speaker 3:That's just really not For your
Speaker 1:own pleasure.
Speaker 3:Right. We're there to receive from God. And it takes a while to learn that. It does. It just does.
Speaker 3:And,
Speaker 2:I And Abraham did not have the advantage of any sort of religious system. Exactly. There's no written text
Speaker 1:No unfolding.
Speaker 2:Or written record. There's no temple system. We don't we don't even know exactly what Abraham's doing as far as the sacrificial system, why he's doing it. Right. I mean Yeah.
Speaker 3:He's just an ancient he's an ancient person.
Speaker 2:He's this guy walking around and a voice comes out of nowhere and says, hey, get up. It's time to go. And he does it. Mhmm. But I think we also forget he lived in a confusing and dark world.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Like child sacrifice was a prevalent form of abortion. Exactly. So it's maybe shocking in a certain way for Abraham to like, okay, well this voice that I've been encountering, this God that I've been encountering over forty years is asking for this but also this is what every other God asks for.
Speaker 3:Is that the same kind Is he the same kind of God?
Speaker 2:He's just like every other God. And so it's not a shock to Abraham necessarily that Mhmm. God would ask this.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so again, I think another thing when we encounter a text like this which is another good direction to go. When you encounter these really just bizarre Mhmm. Old Testament passages, peel back the layers, assess culturally what's going on, what it would have been like. You've got a guy with no bible Mhmm. No Torah, no temple, tabernacle
Speaker 3:No. In it. No priest, really. I mean, he's met Melchizedek. He's met him.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The king of righteousness.
Speaker 3:But what's his deal? What's he even know? I just know he gives him a tithe.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I know Jesus. No Paul. I mean, it's not like he has a robust theology of Exactly.
Speaker 2:The holy spirit doesn't indwell him in the way that it indwells him.
Speaker 3:And who's he gonna talk to about it? Sarah.
Speaker 1:Well, you pick a person, but it's gonna be Yeah. Ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Mean But he knows less than he does.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Sarah. Yeah. I'm gonna go take Isaac.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You're never gonna see him again.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I'm gonna have kill him.
Speaker 1:How's that gonna I mean
Speaker 2:she may just go, the gods are crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Or she might have said, you know what? He's led us this far. So if this is what he says, you know what? I mean, don't know.
Speaker 3:It doesn't even mention that he said anything to her.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:So But it's me, a mom. You know what I
Speaker 2:mean? Right.
Speaker 1:Heck no.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You do whatever you want. Me and I promised a son or going somewhere else.
Speaker 3:I was 90 years old when I had this baby.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I'm gonna hold on
Speaker 3:to it.
Speaker 2:Not doing that again when I'm 100.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna hold on to it.
Speaker 3:So Yeah. So but, theologically, when you you know, I think you're interpreting the text. I think it just reminds us all, we have to slow down a little bit and don't rush. That's just so anti cultural for us.
Speaker 1:Thoughtful. Yeah. You just can't you
Speaker 3:almost can't do that nowadays Mhmm. Because we need to know this by Monday. And so, you know, you just gotta slow down with this and and let it let it steep a little bit because it's it's profound. It is. And, and but I mean, if all you want is a God you can understand and one that you you just have the ability to somehow manipulate at your whim, that just doesn't require a whole lot out of you.
Speaker 3:No. And and then and a lot of people, that's what they seem to desire. Just not the God of the Bible.
Speaker 2:It's not.
Speaker 3:As you said, just that unveiling, not just of Abraham, but of him and who he is and his glory and his splendor. That's why this is a lifelong journey. I think it's why it's an eternal journey, to be honest with you.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 3:I just I just don't know how long it takes. I I think I think about right now at this point in my life, I I would tell you that I'm I'm more mature than I've ever been, and you would hope that to be true. I think I'm more theologically reasoned than I've ever been. I've given more time to theological historical reflection than I ever have. But but I still feel like there's just so much I just don't know yet.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. And I just have to live with it. And
Speaker 2:That's encouraging.
Speaker 3:So, you know, I just sometimes I look at it and think, man. So people say something like, why why is this like this? And it's interesting to me how many times now I'm like, man, I don't know yet.
Speaker 1:I think two.
Speaker 3:I think about that with you. Know some things.
Speaker 1:We're glad to have a pastor that's got that posture. Don't mean to
Speaker 2:run I over
Speaker 1:think for me, when I approached this text for the first time, like when you're like, I'm preaching on this, I'm like, oh, what a wild ride, one. I think when we try to ascribe, maybe my own personal life, everything is like, there must be a test, here's da da da da, you know, or that's a trial, God's got me on a test. It just creates this anxious, odd approach. And so I think there is, to me, for me, this element of just mystery and knowledge of God, where it's like, I don't know if this is a test. I'm gonna try to be faithful in it.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna try to find God in it. I'm gonna try to make it about God's story, not mine. There are lot of life events that you don't you don't understand them till you look backward.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:And you're so tied up in a knot in the moment that if you're trying to parse out what God is trying to test you on and teach you, think there's a little bit of just faithfulness each day. You don't know if it's a blessing. Is this spiritual warfare? Maybe. Is this God protecting me?
Speaker 1:And it's actually just his providence? Maybe. Things we won't know till the end, till the kingdom of God comes in its fullness.
Speaker 3:But also, what I love about this particular story, it illustrates to me the impact of how we do respond because this is going to reverberate through Isaac. Isaac's not going to forget this either. No. And so Isaac's going to be on his own journey of faith. And how many times do you think he looked back on this in a moment?
Speaker 3:Since, you know, we don't have everything in the scripture about him and Rebecca, but they went through quite a bit with their children. I wonder how many times Isaac thought back on this and thought, well, you know, God provided Yeah. In a very tangible way at one point in my Well,
Speaker 2:and even as they lived among other cultures with child sacrifice. Mhmm. Because this is also a clear you know, if this is an unveiling of who God is in a world full of deities that demand child sacrifice. Mhmm. Here's the God that actually says, no.
Speaker 2:No. That's right. This is not who I am. I do not demand this.
Speaker 3:It's like he sealed it once and for all with Abraham. That's another thing to me that now, you know, if you think Moses is the author of Genesis, which I do, so now here you are these years later, and that's a subtle thing for them now. You know, they don't have to worry about is is this something God is gonna require? We if if if God said no during that time of Abraham, then I think he sealed the deal, so speak. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it just shows you there's something different about this God, that he demands something different from us. You know, with those fertility gods, they wanted some of their fruit. I mean, if they're the ones that made this happen, give some of back to me. It's just very different with God, as if you're going to add anything to God. I think that's another beautiful thing that I'm learning as I'm reading these stories.
Speaker 3:We're not adding things to God. God's allowing us to know more more of him. Yeah. That's really what's happening.
Speaker 2:And that's why when we get to James and we read, you know, considerate joy, my brothers, when you experience trials or tests of any kind, it's not because, like, you have an opportunity to pass the test That's exactly right. It's you have this unique opportunity for God's nature and your character to be unveiled in a new way. Mhmm. You get this really beautiful chance to see who God really is because you're not actually the main character of your story. God is the main character of all the stories and you get to see that in action in a new way and that's why it's joyful.
Speaker 2:It's not joyful because I get to put on a happy face and hopefully pass whatever God's throwing at me. It's, you need see who God is. God's gonna reveal And
Speaker 3:if you get weird, you know, if God says, okay, I'm gonna test somebody and you start, you're the kind of person that's like, pick me, pick me. Well then, well then you're just weird. You know? We're we're it it it's kind of like, you know, there's a certain period in Christian history where where at least as best we can tell, people were kind of quote unquote volunteering to be martyred. Well, you know, e even the church recognized that.
Speaker 3:I said, you know what? We're not really gonna count you a martyr.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Don't Google Simeon Stylides.
Speaker 3:Yeah. If you're if you decide
Speaker 1:to I might. Go
Speaker 3:Yeah. Step to the head of the line.
Speaker 2:You might Google Simeon Stylides to get an example of what we're talking about. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's just it's just interesting. Even the the church fathers finally realized, no. That's not what this is. These are people who have tried to be faithful to God and in the moment they were called upon to make that sacrifice. They weren't standing in line.
Speaker 3:Kind of award for it as if this is what God really wants.
Speaker 2:I'll save you the Google. Simeon Stylides is also known as Simeon Pollsitter.
Speaker 1:Unpack it. Unpack it.
Speaker 2:And this is an example of what you're talking about. There was a group called the Essits and basically they thought, well, we can get super holy by inducing physical suffering on ourselves. So Simeon Stylides, the pole sitter sat on top of a pole for years.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I forgot how long.
Speaker 2:And like there's a famous story. This is gross. So you can fast forward thirty seconds. The chains like dug into his flesh and caused wounds and maggots started growing. One falls out and apparently one day he picks it back up and puts it back on and says, take and eat what God has given you.
Speaker 2:That's not what God is That's asking
Speaker 1:Primary mental health. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Primary mental health. That's not it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. We're not looking for a test. We're not reveling in it. But if you live long enough, they will come. A couple folks talked to me about, Well, how do I know if God sent this test or if I'm just in it?
Speaker 3:That's a very profound mystery. I don't always know that.
Speaker 1:And if you're trying to figure I think that's if you're trying to figure that out, you've missed
Speaker 3:It's almost like it doesn't matter, really.
Speaker 1:You just focus on God. The focus is on God.
Speaker 3:You're it. You're in it. Know? Yeah. Now sometimes you're in it of your own doing.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it's your own doing. Sometimes it's the doing of other people.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. Sometimes you're facing something that's a consequence. That's a little different. That's a different conversation. You still need to navigate and be faithful to but you know, there are some times where it's not necessarily you need to change anything.
Speaker 3:It's just what's happening. Know, if you've done something and your behavior, your habitual behavior is leading to something, well then you need to change your behavior. Again, that's another conversation pastorally and theologically. But I love this story. You know, I've always been drawn to Abraham.
Speaker 3:I have so much respect for Abraham. He's I love the way that the Bible portrays him and how real he was. And and and of course, what do you say about him? I mean, think about every Christian refers to him as father Abraham, and every Jew refers to him as father Abraham, and every Muslim refers to him as father Abraham. This is one of the most influential men who's ever lived.
Speaker 3:Outside of Jesus, Paul, Abraham, if you're gonna have an invitation to that party, just Moses.
Speaker 2:There's no Paul without Abraham.
Speaker 1:Right. Abraham has more broader No fuel than offense to I
Speaker 3:remember one time when they asked, who was it sometime, they asked about Earl Campbell, the running back, Bob Phillips, was his coach. They said, do you think Earl Campbell's in a class by himself? He said, I'm not sure, but all I know is it doesn't take take long to call a role in that class. That's what I say about this. If you're going talk about Abraham and maybe Moses and Paul, I guess Peter, obviously, I'm about to go to Rome.
Speaker 3:You know what I mean? Just got a handful of people that just left such impact on this world. That's why I like to read his story and learn from him. And then the writer of Hebrews, Hebrews 11, I think Abraham gets like four shout outs. He'd left such an impression of how he did this.
Speaker 3:That's why
Speaker 1:we need to look
Speaker 3:at it. Look at this story. As strange as it is, as off putting as it is, and challenging as it is, it's there for a reason. I also love the fact that the Bible never rescues God. I know sometimes I have in my heart a desire to kind of protect God's reputation sometimes, and the Bible just doesn't do Now you know in Hebrew, it's Elohim, it's the gods, it's kind of true, you say this in Hebrew, who called out to Abraham.
Speaker 3:But we know this is Yahweh. This is the God that's been following this whole time. So it's like there's just no desire. It's not like there's an addendum at the end. You know God never really wanted him to do this, so I just need to tell you this story.
Speaker 3:No, that's not what you get in the scripture. You just get God saying, Go do this. Yeah. And so I really love that about the Hebrew Bible, that we get God as God is. So we're the ones who going have to figure out what to do with that.
Speaker 3:It's pretty awesome, really.
Speaker 2:It is. Anyway, there you go. That was a podcast.
Speaker 1:Well, bosses, we won't see you in here for
Speaker 2:two weeks.
Speaker 3:I'm taking part of the team with me, with Kyle and Addison. And but we'll be doing some on the ground video of Rome and little church history that we can bring back here to our people.
Speaker 2:Gonna good.
Speaker 1:So you
Speaker 3:can kinda get a taste of it and learn Why you're not my view of church history. It may not be the one, but you'll get my view of
Speaker 2:I bet there's Save you.
Speaker 1:There's not one. Right?
Speaker 2:That's a pretty good one. I would guess.
Speaker 3:So, I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:Well, I will see you all next
Speaker 2:week. Same.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the Tell Me More podcast today. You can subscribe to this podcast on your app of choice, or you can visit us at fbca.org to find out more information about the podcast and our church. Thanks for listening. Have a good day.