Ep. 184 - Worship God!
Welcome to another episode of Tell Me More. Doctor Wiles is back from Rome, we have a great time talking about Rome, everything that's going on in the life of our church, and worship. We hope you enjoy it, and we hope it's informative for you.
Speaker 2:Alright. Welcome. Welcome to this episode of Tell Me More. We're back in the studio. It is Monday, and d jub's back.
Speaker 1:That's right. Welcome back.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Glad to be back. From Rome.
Speaker 3:From Rome.
Speaker 2:Yes. How's the jet lag?
Speaker 3:Well, you know, it's better today.
Speaker 2:When did it hit you the worst? What time of day?
Speaker 3:Little dicey yesterday.
Speaker 2:Because about now, it's it's it's dark in Rome. It's yeah, you're winding down. Right?
Speaker 3:Seven hours ahead of you. So whatever that means.
Speaker 2:10:15. Yeah. It's it's 03:15 right now, everybody.
Speaker 3:Yesterday, during the Super Bowl, we were over at Matt Bowman's house, and, yeah, I missed some of the some of the Super Bowl.
Speaker 2:Missed it. Just I don't know
Speaker 3:what happened. Just out. Yeah. They finally told me I was leaning forward at one point and they said, lean back. We're afraid you're just gonna fall over out of this chair.
Speaker 3:And so
Speaker 2:anyway I've been taking care of you.
Speaker 1:But I That's love.
Speaker 3:I did finally wake up, but it was all good. I'm I'm fine. I'm happy to be here. I'm upright.
Speaker 1:We're glad you're back.
Speaker 2:We're glad you went.
Speaker 3:Glad to be back.
Speaker 2:Very good. Well, there's a lot. I mean, any highlights from Rome before we hop into this?
Speaker 1:Let me ask this question.
Speaker 2:Narrow it down.
Speaker 1:Because you've gotten a few times, a handful.
Speaker 3:I
Speaker 1:have. What new insights emerged for you on this tour of Rome this time? Or what's something that stands out to you
Speaker 2:about
Speaker 1:this trip? Something new, something that stands out.
Speaker 3:Well, every trip is different because of the people that you're with. Mean, you're still seeing the same sights for
Speaker 1:the One of my favorite entire professors and one of our dear friends has a saying, If you never go this way with the same people twice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. It just is what it is. But I think this time, one thing that happened to us is that two of the pastors of the churches we visited, we actually got to interact with. One of them we had met, one of them we hadn't actually three, sorry, three pastors. And, it was very meaningful to visit with them about their life and their role and and how sweet they were to allow us to access their churches.
Speaker 3:And I think it it had an impact on me because they were all so hospitable to us knowing that we're Protestants, and you're not just in a Roman Catholic church, you're in a Roman Catholic church in Rome.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:So this is about as Roman Catholic as it gets.
Speaker 2:You're pretty close to the epicenter.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right there.
Speaker 3:And so all three of those pastors well, Addison was with us, so she can tell you. She she was part of it.
Speaker 2:Addison, our videographer, is in the Yes. She was in the
Speaker 3:just how gracious they were. And, you know, like, it just hit me and just, I hope I'm as hospitable to my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who may not be of my particular tribe. So so that wasn't necessarily anything in terms of what we saw, it was how we retreated in some pretty historic places. That's cool. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, yeah. They were very gracious to us. One of the churches that we go to every year is the Sanctia Apostale, it's the Apostles Church. A number of reasons we go there, it's a Franciscan church. Most every church in Rome is run by a particular order, if you will.
Speaker 3:And, one of the friars, one of the leading friars there, actually. I just happened to see him and we walk in with 37 people. And they have a downstairs in that church where they've mimicked the catacombs. And they also have relics of James the Less and Philip the Apostle. And, so, but downstairs, they have just a really, worshipful, area that kind of like a very small fellowship hall.
Speaker 3:And we wanted to use it for my lecture and we visited with him and and it's a Franciscan church and he's a Franciscan friar. He's from Zambia and his name is Francis. And, very gracious, very sweet. And he told him what we wanted to do and he said, of course, please make yourself at home. And, they turned on a Gregorian chant for us, you know, to be playing in the upstairs while we were down there.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And then we go to Cindy's favorite church in Rome, and one of my favorite churches is the Basilica San Clemente. The mosaic on the apse of that church is the inspiration for our stained glass windows where I got the idea of what we have in our church.
Speaker 2:Cross talking about the cross behind the Yeah. The baptistry?
Speaker 3:The cross over the baptistry. Yeah. The imagery of in San Clemente. You can look it up online. The the mosaic is beautiful.
Speaker 2:What might one Google to find that online?
Speaker 3:Basilica San Clemente.
Speaker 2:There you go.
Speaker 3:Rome. Saint Clemente. Yep. The church in Rome. And, the pastor there, that church is run by Irish Dominicans.
Speaker 3:The king of England kicked the Irish Dominicans out of Ireland, a couple centuries ago and so they the pope gave them a place to come and live. So he gave them this church. Well, anyway, the pastor that church is, Paul Lawler. We've met Paul before. But, this year, he actually gave our our whole group a a lecture on just the history of the church and the meaning of things we saw there.
Speaker 3:So, that was a really cool thing. Once again, gracious, very hospitable, very Irish Catholic priest. But for him to just be so welcoming, knowing who we were, that, you know, we're not Catholics, you know, we're Protestants. Mhmm. And then we did a worship service at Catacomb Of Saint Dematilla.
Speaker 3:And, Father Thomas leads that basilica and oversees that ministry, and he allowed us to have the Lord's Supper, which as you might imagine.
Speaker 1:It's a big deal.
Speaker 3:It really is.
Speaker 1:It's a big honking deal.
Speaker 3:So for him to allow us to do that, not only that, when we got there that morning, there's a table that he lets us that's in this little portico area and he had it covered with a draping and he had candles and a cross set up there waiting on us.
Speaker 1:But if you're not familiar with Roman Catholicism and you're listening, you as a Protestant or as a non Catholic cannot partake in the mass at a You can be blessed by a priest, but you cannot receive the helmets at all. So for them to
Speaker 3:Just allow us to do that on that property. We couldn't go down in the basilica. The basilica's underground there, which is fine, obviously. But, but we're still on their property underneath his jurisdiction. And, and it is a The Gathering Place is a place where they gather for prayer and singing and all that, and he let us use it for the Eucharist, as he would say.
Speaker 2:That is very generous.
Speaker 3:It is very generous.
Speaker 2:It's a
Speaker 3:good good word for you to use.
Speaker 2:So overall, a good trip. Mhmm. You left Kurt in Rome, or in Italy, I should say.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Kurt and Kim.
Speaker 1:Is he competing in the Olympics? Or
Speaker 3:We had two, let's see, we had two families that left and went to the Olympics, went to the opening night, opening ceremony, and then they went and attended some of the first events, at the Olympics. It it was in Milan. Was kind of I say Milan was hosting, it was kind of all over Northern Italy. Mhmm. You know, winter Usually are.
Speaker 3:Little bit
Speaker 2:strange because
Speaker 1:it's You have to do it in so many places.
Speaker 3:You gotta have a mountain with snow and
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:All that. I've never actually been to Milan. But then a number of folks stayed and just went various places. So Kurt and Kim are in Florence.
Speaker 1:Kurt's a favorite city.
Speaker 3:He loves Florence and, lots of friends from the church that are there with him. They've been doing well. It gives Kurt a chance to kinda because he does so much of the logistics. A lot of people have no idea what all Kurt does. You know, it's it's like that image if you've ever seen a moose swim, you know, the moose is just kinda going across the water but under underwater.
Speaker 2:Oh, I've always heard the duck analogy there.
Speaker 3:You know, the legs or thrashing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I've not often heard it applied to a moose. I have heard it applied to a duck. Is Kurt more a duck or a moose?
Speaker 3:I'd say a moose. Okay.
Speaker 2:You heard it here.
Speaker 3:The thrashing under the water of the moose is crazy. And Kurt's just going ahead of us and you have to there's so many places where the entries are timed and you have to you've gotta have everything done just right. And, you know, you've gotta some of the places you actually have to have your passport and names attached that are correct. And and all that has to be approved. And somebody has to do all that and make sure all that's right.
Speaker 3:So while I'm just walking around talking, Kurt is navigating and managing and handling the clock and dealing with vendors and and so, you know, and plus he's responsible for, you know, 30 something people on the trip. And all kinds of things happen. You know, we've had everything you can think of. We've had medical emergencies. Oh, We've had people who've who've been robbed.
Speaker 2:It doesn't surprise me at all.
Speaker 3:People who've had things happen here where they've had to return home. We've had, you know, just a number of things that have taken place through the years, and he's the one that just manages all of that and, allows me to focus on trying to lead a spiritual pilgrimage through church history. So, yeah. It's awesome. We had a great time.
Speaker 1:Well done, Kurt Grice.
Speaker 3:I mean.
Speaker 1:First Baptist Church's official moose on the loose.
Speaker 3:Yes. That's right. He's, he's the man. So
Speaker 2:And he'll come back next week sometime, but right when he comes back, it's Ash Wednesday.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:Which, which leads me to our next segment.
Speaker 1:Ba ba ba ba.
Speaker 3:He's already is sponsored by First Herald, the palm fronds, and
Speaker 1:he's got I saw there's a Tupperware on in Katie's desk.
Speaker 3:Yep. Kurt is Everything ready?
Speaker 2:The keeper of our liturgical tradition where he actually gathers the palm fronds from Palm Sunday, keeps them, dries them out, burns them into ashes. Very for him, very spirit it's very spiritual moment. Mhmm. Then we, he and I, have always done it together, turned them into kind of the paste Mhmm. That sticks to your forehead Mhmm.
Speaker 2:On Ash Wednesday. So, yes, in his care, he gave he went ahead and put the ashes on my desk in case anything happens with his flight back so that we will have time to mix the ashes and have them ready for Ash Wednesday, which, like I said
Speaker 3:Like I said, the moose. Moose
Speaker 1:up. Moose Moose up.
Speaker 3:Moose up. Up.
Speaker 2:If we're sponsored by First Baptist Church Arlington, which we are, Ash Wednesday is next Wednesday.
Speaker 1:It is. It's coming very Which
Speaker 2:let starts next Wednesday, the eighteenth. It's just it's right upon us, and it's gonna be I'm hope I'm hopeful in a spiritual
Speaker 1:sense for
Speaker 2:our people that it'll be the
Speaker 1:good shepherd.
Speaker 3:We're gonna be focused on the good shepherd.
Speaker 2:Well, I just feel like that could go well
Speaker 1:So for our
Speaker 2:we're doing that. There's also, there's a kind of a lot of big I I hate to just call them programs cause they're ministry events.
Speaker 1:So many big events. We have a men's retreat on February 21.
Speaker 2:It's gonna be here at the church. Here at
Speaker 1:the church
Speaker 2:in Ross Chandler.
Speaker 3:Ryan Chandler's brother.
Speaker 2:Ryan Chandler's older brother.
Speaker 1:He and Ryan sound the same.
Speaker 2:But they don't
Speaker 1:look the same.
Speaker 3:Yep. They're very different people. They are.
Speaker 2:And Ross is a good 10 year
Speaker 1:old They're Great guy.
Speaker 2:They're not twins by any means in terms of age. And then, well, just did the women's tea party. Big event. Full room. Way to go women's committee.
Speaker 2:Way to go kitchen. It's a lot of work on them. But looking forward, faith at home is at the end of the month? The twenty seventh, twentieth?
Speaker 1:Twenty seventh, twentieth.
Speaker 2:So we've signed up. The Hodges have signed up. We'd love for you to come to that.
Speaker 1:You should do it.
Speaker 2:Mission possible.
Speaker 1:Is the theme. It's gonna be good. And then we also start passing out our gift bags for Ramadan this coming Sunday.
Speaker 2:Yes. Wait. There's kind of an eclipse. Don't know if we've talked about it in here, but we have talked about it. The lunar New Year, Ramadan, Ramadan, and Ash Wednesday all line up within the same, like, twenty four hours to start.
Speaker 1:Which is wild.
Speaker 2:It's rare. And we're trying to just make people aware, particularly about Ramadan. We've been trying to do that. We obviously will make people aware of Ash Wednesday.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so if you didn't listen to last week's episode, we had Budd Houston on in place of doctor Wiles. Mhmm. And just provided some really helpful, beneficial information Yeah.
Speaker 2:Go back and
Speaker 1:listen that. Just on how you can live evangelistically around your Muslim neighbors and coworkers. And so we'll have gift bags for you to pass out as Ramadan starts. So that'll start this Sunday. We'll have those in the welcome center.
Speaker 2:Yes. And be obviously, even with Bub, we talked about, like, if you don't feel confident about engaging a Muslim you might know, then we just start with prayer and a posture of humility and just see what God could do with that. So don't say, I can't do that. Just say, I'm not yet comfortable with that. Yep.
Speaker 2:But maybe God can use this time to help me grow
Speaker 1:more Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Faithful in that.
Speaker 1:I'm a big fan of the BLESS acronym for evangelistic habits.
Speaker 2:Is b Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Is begin with prayer.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So you begin with prayer, you listen to your neighbors, eat with I
Speaker 2:can do that.
Speaker 1:Serve them.
Speaker 2:I can do that.
Speaker 1:Share Jesus with them.
Speaker 2:I hope I can do that.
Speaker 1:You know, the Bible says there's only one answer you have to be ready for.
Speaker 2:Which is?
Speaker 1:The hope that's in you.
Speaker 2:I can do that. So Love it. Very good.
Speaker 1:That's all you gotta know. Why do you have hope?
Speaker 2:That's great. And there's there's a myriad of other things. So fbca.org/events will help you do that. We just talked to Brian about all the great senior adult ministry he has going. So there's just something for everybody.
Speaker 2:I sure hope. Wednesday nights are rocking and rolling, midweek, bible studies, perspectives, crocheting, pickleball. We got something. Obviously, kids are
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Great programming. So we love it.
Speaker 1:Come do something with us.
Speaker 2:Come do something with us. Before we jump into the sermon, I do wanna look at yesterday in general though. We celebrated David Butts Retirement? Three and a
Speaker 3:half years later.
Speaker 1:I mean, can you say?
Speaker 2:David's. Yeah, well done. Thanks.
Speaker 3:Yep. Faithful. Blessings. Yeah. Honorable.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think if you're a parent in our church, you know, over the course of the last twenty years, you know, I think I think about the McDaniel fam family. I think they got a picture of every single one of their kids, with miss David and getting their bibles. Yeah. You know, David's probably walked through your kid through a baptism process or giving them their first grade bible.
Speaker 1:And so
Speaker 2:just You think such about twenty three years of first grade bibles. 23 grades of first grade bibles.
Speaker 1:Just incredible. I think Addison, our videographer
Speaker 2:I bet you first grade bible.
Speaker 1:Recipient of a first grade bible.
Speaker 2:It matters.
Speaker 1:David Butts.
Speaker 2:These things matter very much.
Speaker 1:So
Speaker 2:it's really Yeah. I used the word the phrase culture shift today. Just without David on our staff Mhmm. And overseeing such a large important swath of our ministry, we will have
Speaker 3:a culture shift.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And it'll be a little wake that we have to fill. Yep. So thank you, David
Speaker 3:I mean
Speaker 2:and fam Great. Great. Lori for all your sacrifice Lori and
Speaker 3:has been such a an effective and humble volunteer, to served alongside David all of these years. David's cultivated an incredible array of volunteers and, just he has just done incredibly well. Been a great blessing to us and, we we are so grateful for his years of ministry here. And, so many children love mister David.
Speaker 1:Oh, mine too.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And, yeah. My grandkids, he's just had an impact on on and on our families, you know, not just the children. Yep. Children for sure, but families of children.
Speaker 3:He's provided so many opportunities for memorable experiences and spiritual formation and, and fun. You know, he's made sure that our children could have a safe place to just have fun. And they have had so many events that he's playing. So many just, opportunities for memories to be made and yeah. Good job, David.
Speaker 3:Really
Speaker 2:Well done.
Speaker 3:Well done. Well done. So, yeah. We're we're grateful. We are.
Speaker 3:So, yeah. It was a sweet day.
Speaker 1:K. It was.
Speaker 2:With that, you're back.
Speaker 1:Yes. You preached. You preached.
Speaker 3:I did. I think so. You know, I was a little I was up late that night.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You did.
Speaker 3:I think so.
Speaker 2:I watched the contemporary well, I was behind the scenes on Sunday morning, helping with the reception and some other things, so I went back and watched this morning the contemporary service.
Speaker 3:Gotcha.
Speaker 2:You you contextualized that with your gas leak. Did you do that in both services?
Speaker 3:No. Well, I told that in the beginning when I did the welcome.
Speaker 2:Oh. Or so. So they heard it, but not in person's room.
Speaker 3:Knew that it was kind of a weird
Speaker 1:Do you have hot water
Speaker 3:again? We do.
Speaker 2:And you feel safe during it all on, closing your garage door, whatever that is.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Everything's fine. It was just so odd when we got home and we're late and tired and jet lagged and ready to go to bed.
Speaker 2:And you just couldn't No. I mean, you had to deal with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No gas. No hot water. No. It's life.
Speaker 3:Yes. Praise God. We have it.
Speaker 2:That's what I said. Yes. Thank you, God, for the comforts. But
Speaker 3:you preached when I was gone. Y'all both taught for me. You preached. You taught.
Speaker 2:That's right. Brian Chandler taught as well.
Speaker 1:Brian Chandler did an online pastor's bible study.
Speaker 3:He did. I was in the airport in Dallas, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Noon Wednesday. That feels right. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Watched part of that one. So, yeah, it's all good.
Speaker 2:We hold it down.
Speaker 3:Y'all are a great team.
Speaker 2:We're glad to serve while you're gone.
Speaker 1:We
Speaker 2:are. Happy to have you back.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Yeah. Glad to be back. And So Designed to flourish. That's what we're doing for the winter.
Speaker 2:And I've enjoyed walking through these Old Testament characters, one.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. You
Speaker 3:did a great job.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I had a lot to work with. I mean, there's a lot to that passage that we need to take seriously. You know, this isn't my tone more. There's a lot in Psalm 50 There's a lot you could That was the, well, the preparation was ridiculous because of the ice storm.
Speaker 2:I was at home for five days with three three year olds.
Speaker 1:It's a really productive writing
Speaker 3:Did help you get ready?
Speaker 2:Well, gave me a good illustration. That was a week prior. But I really could have preached that five different times, five different ways. It was one of those. Because there's so much in Psalm 51.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just depending on what you wanna emphasize.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:So many themes. So many anyway. So I could have either done, like, three hour five movement sermon, or you're just the discipline of, like, pick one thing that you think is what God has for the for the people and go with it. So that's what I did. But, yes.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I have enjoyed, though, walking through these old testament pillars, and it's I like it because it's not really, like, advertised as a theme. You know? We're not, like, highlighting Old Testament heroes. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But you're using their stories in different angles to, I don't know, to prove this point, which I think is very has been very enjoyable. So yesterday, you're back talking about worship Mhmm. Looking at this passage from Isaiah. Mhmm. Well, I mean, where do we wanna start?
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Luke, you got a chance to
Speaker 3:listen to it?
Speaker 1:I did. I've also like Katie didn't actually have
Speaker 2:a chance to listen on Sunday morning. You just never know.
Speaker 1:You never know.
Speaker 2:Best of intention.
Speaker 1:It didn't happen. I love that you sit and I don't know that you I actually I know that you'd intentionally did this but you didn't phrase it this way. Situated worship in the context of sentness.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And I was wondering
Speaker 3:if you
Speaker 1:could just kinda draw those themes out some more. So, you know, you refused to allow worship to be separated from the fact that what's happening in that passage is God is sending Isaiah out.
Speaker 3:Tell me more. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Tell us everything.
Speaker 3:It's such a famous passage. I mean Oh, yeah. So well known and and and as it should be. What a I mean, what an experience, you know, as, you know, I was in Rome preparing, reading, praying.
Speaker 1:It's a very different preparation environment than iced in with triplet toddlers.
Speaker 3:Correct. That is correct.
Speaker 2:We did have vastly different we also had different iced in experiences we could reflect on.
Speaker 3:We did. And so
Speaker 2:had a sabbatical of sorts.
Speaker 3:Did contextualize, you know, for me. I'm walking in, first of all, a place where the people of God have worshipped for centuries. And so that was very humbling. And and I I tried to, help our our church members just imagine what it must have been like in ancient Rome for these early Christians. One of the things that we did on our last day there is, we we huddled up together and we were we pretended we were at our home and Cindy and I were Priscilla and Aquila.
Speaker 3:Addison was there for that. And so, we had Beverly Stuckey there, who's one of our deacons at our church. And so I huddled us all up and I said, we're so glad y'all could be here today. Priscilla and I are grateful to host you all, you know, here in our home and, just said, you know, some of us are missing. I don't see Andronicus or Junia.
Speaker 3:I don't know if you guys heard from them, but we've heard they might have been questioned, you know, because the emperor has just died and now have we this new emperor and we're not none of us know. I mean, Nero's only 17 years old. How's he going to manage all of this? What's gonna happen to us? And and then I called Beverly up and I said, but our our sister Phoebe has just arrived with a letter from Paul.
Speaker 3:And you all know that my wife and I know Paul. We're good friends with him and he's written us this letter. We need to listen to this. And so we read part of Romans kind of trying to imagine we're surrounded by the opulence of Rome and we get this letter where Paul's telling us, don't be afraid. This present suffering is nothing to compare to glory that's in our future and nothing can separate you from the love Even of if you think you're separated.
Speaker 3:So we tried to draw us, together we tried to draw ourselves into this moment of learning what did it mean to worship in a setting where you were surrounded by temples of worship. But they were all, we knew they were pagan gods and some of us come out of that background, some of us come out of Judaism. And so that was the setting for me as I studying. Just trying to imagine in these It's hard to go back, to imagine all that because you're walking through such glorious edifices built for worship. Know, places like Saint John Lateran, Saint Paul's outside the walls, or, obviously Saint Peter's Basilica, Saint Peter In Change, another one of my favorite churches there.
Speaker 3:And so, you know, as as I thought about it, we asked ourselves the question, how did Rome become this? How did this happen? Well, it's because the people of God were sent. They they went. They shared this this story.
Speaker 3:So their worship led them to action. So that was all in my mind as I was preparing the sermon. So that was the connection for me that Isaiah, you know, he's he's ministering. He doesn't say much about it, but I think it's because he felt like he didn't have to. For the people that would have read this originally, when Uzziah died, it was a sad time
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:You know, for the people God. He'd been king for fifty two years. So you think about there are people who were born
Speaker 1:It's like when Queen Elizabeth died. Yeah. Something like that.
Speaker 3:You you because their life expectancy at that time, life expectancy was shorter. They were born, they lived, they died. He's the only king they ever knew. Some of them, he was their grandparents' king. You know what I mean?
Speaker 3:And he has just died. And so when Isaiah begins this passage that way, he's sending us a message at a very low point in history, you know, when Abraham Lincoln has just been assassinated or, I mean, pick something. I don't know. Whatever you see as a tragedy. Then God broke into our darkness and revealed himself to me in this memorable way.
Speaker 3:And I recognize, I think Isaiah would say it was a moment in history that's going to change the course of my whole life. And so, yeah, I I feel like that those encounters with God that we have are not just not just for our own benefit. I I think that's part of what I was trying to communicate that it's it does change us, but it should change us in a way that causes us to realize there's something beyond our own personal transformation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Here I am, it's in me. That's kinda what was my thinking. But all of that history of Christianity was in the back of
Speaker 1:my mind. Yeah. Isaiah doesn't just have, wow, what an awesome experience. The seraphs were flying around.
Speaker 2:Let me go home now. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. No. It transformed him in every respect. Changed the course of his life. Worship should do that to us, I guess is what I think.
Speaker 3:It's powerful. I love it. I love that story. I love the imagery. I love the fact that he's starting to describe everything, and then all of a sudden you realize he's not really describing God because it's not like he's able to look directly at God.
Speaker 3:He's just looking at the evidence of God. And that's enough. That's enough to change him forever. So yeah, it's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Excuse me.
Speaker 1:I mean, the whole the whole of Isaiah is just so profound and beautiful. Oh my goodness. It's powerful.
Speaker 3:Amen. No wonder I so quoted it so Think about it.
Speaker 2:All the time.
Speaker 3:It captures the imagination of the New Testament theologians. They can't help themselves, you know. This this is
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, in some ways you could some people say Isaiah's the fifth gospel or they say that Isaiah is is the
Speaker 1:It's almost a proto.
Speaker 3:And miniature. You know what I mean? It's so it's just so powerful. It's so riveting. And it and it cuts across so many different experiences in the life of Israel, which is one of the reasons people try to figure out could one person have written this?
Speaker 3:And we've talked about that before. My answer to that is yes. But I also understand why you would have to ask the question because Gosh. You know, there's just so much. There's so many different contexts addressed by what Isaiah sees and how God reveals himself.
Speaker 3:It's it's it's it's quite a read is what I'd say.
Speaker 1:So Yeah.
Speaker 3:But worship is powerful, y'all. Worship is, you know, I'm I'm grateful that we're at a different point in history in terms of the evangelical church at least because in my earlier life as a minister, we we were in the middle of, hard conversations about music in worship and what's
Speaker 1:going The worship wars
Speaker 2:as they have been so dubbed.
Speaker 3:So if you were gonna preach on worship in those days, you couldn't help yourself. You had to address some of the disconnect that people have feeling and some of the confusion about worship. And so historically, as I've as I've preached it, I've had to address that and I'd loved the freedom this time. I never even gave that a thought. Those seem to be settled issues for us.
Speaker 3:So really focus tomorrow on what I think the text teaches us. You know?
Speaker 2:So Yeah. You don't have to justify Yeah. Guitars and the sanctuary
Speaker 3:and drums. Try to make you feel guilty for how you feel or don't feel.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You can actually talk about
Speaker 3:kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, I was looking over your first the quote you kinda opened with Mhmm. From William Temple.
Speaker 3:So good.
Speaker 2:Who I'm not familiar with. Should I know William Temple?
Speaker 3:No. Not really. He's just a former archbishop of Canterbury.
Speaker 1:Not a big deal. No.
Speaker 2:I don't do much with those. Probably
Speaker 3:wouldn't be in our
Speaker 2:I don't do much with those.
Speaker 3:Wouldn't be in our realm, so to speak. But this is a great word about worship.
Speaker 2:It's a great word about worship. Very comprehensive. Yeah. For the listener, I don't wanna read the whole thing, but it starts with, worship is the submission of all our nature to God. And then it talks about all of it, conscience, mind, imagination, heart, will, all of it.
Speaker 2:So that's a more holistic view than drums and guitars in the sanctuary. It is. It's about just submitting our whole life to God and what that looks like.
Speaker 3:You know, and I asked the congregation, come up with your definition of worship. Send it to me. I'd love for us to see it. I've already had one submission. A dad today showed me the notes that his daughter wrote, on her little, the little Sweet.
Speaker 1:Global And kids
Speaker 3:she wrote something like, she showed it to her dad, worship is thanking God for everything.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 3:So here's more little children trying to decide in their mind, their heart what is worship. And, so yeah, this, this statement from him, what I like about it is just the comprehensive nature of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I think the area where I'd push back and you sort of went there in your sermon is I would say that that's a good definition of Christian worship. Yeah. But we know from the old Testament, you can worship a lot of things that aren't God.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:So there's a, David Foster Wallace has a quote that he gave commencement address and he says, he's a secular writer actually, not a Christian. Speaking at a very liberal liberal arts university graduation, but he writes in the day to day trenches of adult life, there's actually no such thing as atheism. There's no such thing as not worshiping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship.
Speaker 1:And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of God or spiritual type thing to worship is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. Wow. And so as you, you know, turn to your non political moment yesterday of all the isms Mhmm. That we find ourselves in. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:We live in a dark age. Mhmm. We are the people walking in darkness. Mhmm. My goodness.
Speaker 1:But I think we're seeing the evidence of what happens when you worship something else.
Speaker 3:And it is eating people alive. Yeah, because if you think about it, as best I know, every civilization archaeologists have uncovered has an altar. There's something that receives the adoration of people. We've been to some places in Africa where in a village, there'll be a tree that's marked and it's it's the worship place. It's it's where, you know, they believe that's where they meet their God.
Speaker 3:And and so they worship that tree. They hang things on it, you know. They mark it. They they make offerings to it believing that it has some kind of force in their lives. And on the one hand, it's easy to look at that and judge it.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:But on the other hand, in our culture, there are things that are being worshipped today that are just as ludicrous as worshiping a tree. It's just dressed up a little better for us.
Speaker 1:Modern sensibilities.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And so, yeah, if you put your affections in the wrong place. Yeah.
Speaker 2:How does one know if they're worshiping the wrong thing?
Speaker 1:There's a Catholic theologian named William Kavanaugh and he would say that there's a question you can't ask in your culture because it's just too dangerous. And so if you figure out what that question is, there's a good chance that that's what your culture is worshiping, what you're probably worshiping.
Speaker 2:Can you give an example?
Speaker 1:I can. I wanna, like, lay out some maybe base thoughts before. I don't know that idolatry, this worship of the wrong things is always a binary like you either do it or you don't. Right.
Speaker 3:It's more complex.
Speaker 1:It's more complex. So like you think about when Jesus says you can only you can't worship God and money. You you can't serve two masters. You'll end up hating one. Well, immediate follow from that verse is, so don't worry.
Speaker 1:Don't worry about what you'll wear, what you'll eat. God's gonna take care of you. God takes care of the sparrows, lilies. Don't you know that God's gonna take care of you? So Jesus directly attaches worry about your financial resources is kind of a life under the idol of mammon.
Speaker 1:So if you're worrying, you've already kind of leaned a little bit into the worship of money. So it's not necessarily like an on off switch. It's better to think of maybe the worship of money as a continuum. You know, if you're super worried about your Roth IRA every day, well, are you serving mammon?
Speaker 3:If that's where your security is.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so I think it's better to think of it as a sliding scale.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And we know, you know Paul says, know, if you think about any evil in society, Paul would say, well you know what the root of that evil is? It's money.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Yep.
Speaker 1:And so that's an that's an easy one to pick on just because as a biblical writer speak about it so clearly. But yeah, it's Think about the question you can't ask and that's how you start figuring out where the idols are.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think when I look at our society today, particularly in the West, it's very self indulgent. I think it's highly narcissistic. And our identity, our rights, just our incredible egocentrism in the West, to me, it borders on idolatry. It kind of becomes the thing you can't abrogate.
Speaker 3:You can't violate that from me. It's not your business to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's the question that threatens.
Speaker 3:You just can't do that. Okay. The problem with that is if God really is God, then we have to surrender all that underneath his authority regardless. And it's hard for all of us. I'm not I'm not acting like I'm above it.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's difficult, you know. But yeah, if you if you if you surrender to whatever it is and it's not the Lord himself, you're you're opening yourself up. You know? And I think that's why I loved how Isaiah, when he saw God, the glimpse really of God is probably the best way to put it, his reaction to that was, well, I'm obviously ruined. I'm not survive this because so whatever that is, I'm so just not.
Speaker 3:And so how could that ever use this? This is just not gonna happen. I mean, I'm so far. Woe to me. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean, and I just love that. That recognition of whatever, however self important you may think you are, in that moment, you realize you're just useless, really. I mean, why would that holy, pure, majestic, glorious God ever be able to use something like this? Is just not gonna happen. And then that imagery, you think about that, for whatever reason, that the coal was too hot for the burning one to pick up, know, the serif.
Speaker 3:So he has to use tongs, I've always found that interesting. So he couldn't just grab it because And it's on then he comes and touches Isaiah with it. And instead of being consumed, he's cleansed.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I just I just love that. Yeah. That's that's what God does. And once you're cleansed and you've been restored and redeemed, well the whole thing is is to be useful, to live into your purpose. That's why the sending peace is so much part of it.
Speaker 3:Once you can do that, then you can be purposeful. And you know good and well it's not because of what you've done.
Speaker 2:Because Isaiah knew I can't clean myself up.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Woe to me. I'm an unclean person.
Speaker 2:That echoes what I was trying to get at last week with David. Yes. David messed up to a point and was called out by God, by God's prophet, to a point where he was like, oh, man. I've got nothing.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 2:If you don't cleanse me. Yeah. Was I was sinful in my mother's womb. Yeah. Like there's nothing in me.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's so beautiful when you then connect it with what Isaiah later says. John picks up on the theme in his introduction to his book. But it's first these people walking around in darkness. But Isaiah says people walking in darkness have seen a great light.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:And so you connect to that the experience Isaiah has in worship. Mhmm. You know, the light doesn't come from us. It breaks in. That's right.
Speaker 1:We're people living under the power of sin and idols and principalities and powers and it takes God to break into this.
Speaker 3:That's right. And if you don't deal with it, if you don't address your own sinfulness, then as I said Sunday, sin has a way of just permeating everything in your being. And and then you you just get desensitized and you start to normalize behaviors that grow out of sinfulness and it it creates numbness and clouded perspective. History has proven we're capable of anything.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:We're just capable of anything. Pick something. You you see those images of a concentration camp when the allies come in and you've all seen these photos, you see these emaciated men who are really just skeletons. And you look at it now, we look at it and go, how could you have been a guard in a place like that and you're guarding human beings and this is what you're creating, this is what you're doing to these human beings, how could you do that? Well, turns out, if you get desensitized enough, you can normalize anything.
Speaker 3:You can enslave them, you can put them in a gas chamber. You can enslave people because of the color of their skin. You can decide they're not actually really human. You can abuse and dominate women. You can objectify them because of the lust that you have.
Speaker 3:Somehow it becomes normal to you because that's just the way it's supposed to be. This is the role of a woman. She's there to satisfy the needs of a man. And if you get so desensitized, well then every woman is in that category. There's honoring of another human.
Speaker 3:And so think about it. It just filters out or makes its way out into society. And if you get enough people who buy into it, it becomes normal for everybody. And it emerges so often just out of sinfulness, just brokenness, just separation from God, just a lack of the love that God has made available to all of us. And so, that's why I wanted to say Sunday morning, when we come into God's presence, you should be confronted.
Speaker 3:You should be. You should acknowledge your brokenness. You know, we made jokes walking around Rome. We 'd go into a church and every church in Rome has confessional booths because, you know, Roman Catholics have a works based approach to salvation, which I totally disagree with. I'm grace based.
Speaker 3:They would argue they're grace based as well. So it's another Mhmm.
Speaker 1:They taught
Speaker 3:it for another day. But at the end of the day though, they are required to do penis. They're required to do it. Because it's like one of our guides said, barnacles and confession is the time to get those barnacles removed, those hindrances in your life. And if you don't do it, well then you're just carrying this weight all the time.
Speaker 3:And so they go to confession. And so we were joking. As you might imagine, I'm with everybody and they're like, could you go into one of these booths and let us confess? And my typical response is, we'll probably do some of y'all some good. Know?
Speaker 1:It's not the worst idea.
Speaker 3:Some of you don't ever do it. You just say to the Lord, please forgive me for my sins. That's a really good way to do it. That's easy out. That way you don't have to say, Lord, forgive me for the lust that's consuming me right now.
Speaker 3:So the easier thing to do is say, Lord, just please forgive me for my sins. So that you don't have to actually say it out loud. This is what's happening to me. This is what's emerging out of my heart right now. So I do at least appreciate that part of Roman Catholic practice, that it's a regular part of their life, faithful Roman Catholics, to at least acknowledge their ongoing journey and battle with sin.
Speaker 3:I disagree with the theology behind it, so hear me carefully. I do. But I think there's something into the practice of that that we can learn from.
Speaker 1:So Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And that that's why I wanted to address that Sunday morning with the church that all kinds of things emerge out of it. And and it's easy to excuse it. It's easy to put it underneath the the umbrella of something else. It's easy to capture it and use it for your own your own gain. It's easy to control the masses with it.
Speaker 3:I get it. I've I've, you know, I've studied history. I I know how it works. Christians though, we can't be enamored with that. We can't allow ourselves to go down that path.
Speaker 3:We have to acknowledge our own limitations. We just do and stay humble in it. You know? So that's why that's such a powerful experience of worship to me with Isaiah. And obviously, we're not all going to have this glimpse of God every time we worship.
Speaker 3:But all along, we need to be in his presence. We need to have those moments where we're in awe of him. And we have to take our hands off sometimes and say, this is the Lord's. Only by his grace am I even in this moment.
Speaker 2:But not just to feel good about ourselves.
Speaker 3:Exactly. So that we can be used by purposefully into his endeavors. And what a great honor. What greater thing could you be a part of? Really, what greater Tell me.
Speaker 1:I don't think there's anything.
Speaker 3:What? I mean, I'm talking about for all of us. I don't just mean people to engaged in ministry professionally. I'm talking about all of us. Right.
Speaker 3:What what greater thing could you possibly be involved in than the the incredible work of God and his plan of redemption for all of creation? I mean, I don't know what you think is better than that or more important than that Try
Speaker 2:it out. It'll fall short.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, what if you're alive?
Speaker 2:Go for it. Let us know how that goes.
Speaker 3:So come on, y'all. I mean, this is this is what it's all about. That's why we're here, and everybody gets to put their hands on it. We all I don't care what you do for a living. You get to be a part of this, but you need clean hands.
Speaker 1:And you can't clean them yourself.
Speaker 3:That's right. You just can't. But they can be cleansed. That's why I was so grateful the story doesn't end with Isaiah's ruin. It ends with his commission.
Speaker 3:So, yeah. It's awesome. I love it.
Speaker 1:That'll preach. It did. It did preach.
Speaker 2:That preached.
Speaker 3:Yes. So let's look at John the Baptist next Sunday.
Speaker 1:Sounds good.
Speaker 2:Oh. Entering into the in I think
Speaker 3:we should. Yeah. Let's do a little John the
Speaker 1:Baptist. Sounds like a plan.
Speaker 2:I like it.
Speaker 1:Well, thanks for listening everyone.
Speaker 2:Alright, team. We'll do it again next week. Thanks for listening to the Tell Me More podcast today. You can subscribe to this podcast on your app of choice, or you can visit us at fbca.org to find out more information about the podcast and our church. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2:Have a good day.