Ep. 199 - Pentecostal Power
Welcome to another episode of Tell Me More. On this episode, we're celebrating Pentecost and all that God has done through the Holy Spirit and who the Holy Spirit is, its role in our lives, and we hope it is a formative episode for you.
Speaker 2:Welcome to this week's episode of Tell Me More. We're in the studio. It's not Monday because we all observed Memorial Day yesterday. But
Speaker 1:the day before Memorial Day, we observed Pentecost.
Speaker 2:Pentecostal. It's it's kind of a Baptist distinctive.
Speaker 1:That's what I've heard.
Speaker 2:Sadly. We may have overcorrected throughout the years. Spirit is addressed in the Baptist faith in the message. The Holy Spirit is addressed in the Baptist faith the message. Yeah.
Speaker 2:All of them. All of them. That's good. But we did celebrate Pentecost, and I think there's there's a lot to talk about.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Yes.
Speaker 2:One of the things I was thinking about, I went to Dayspring Baptist Church in Waco before I was here. It's a very formative church for me because it was my church during seminary and had a lot of good mentorship. Anyway, y'all all know that. But one of the things that Dayspring did, which which was kind of a object lesson for the kids, is that they always had a birthday cake on Pentecost. It was red and it had flames.
Speaker 1:Which red is the liturgical color for Pentecost?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:The Finbrezes wore red yesterday and they I love
Speaker 2:walked it. By.
Speaker 1:I said nice red. And they said we're fired up for Pentecost.
Speaker 2:I don't own red. I looked to my closet, and I was like, I can't participate.
Speaker 3:I'm I'm an auber man. I don't have anything red. You know?
Speaker 1:We're gonna have to have
Speaker 2:some nice a red shirt and wear it. Just been at the late May
Speaker 3:or beyond yesterday. I heard
Speaker 2:the roses. Videos beautiful. Yeah. So well, tell the tell our people what that what they do at the Pantheon.
Speaker 3:Well, they've been doing this for, gosh, starting the seventh century when Boniface declared the Pantheon, the natural church, I think it's 06/2009. They dropped rose petals through the The oculus. Yeah. Just to signify the tongues of fire.
Speaker 2:It was lovely. I watched a video of it. So there's just I mean, thousands would it may be millions. There's rose petals on rose petals on rose petals. Pretty awesome.
Speaker 2:Just dropping down through this very lit circle in the sea. It's beautiful. Mhmm. So who ever thought of that? Like, a great and then and then I think
Speaker 3:Turns out Boniface.
Speaker 2:I wonder if there are rose gardens out in the fields that are just dedicated to be the Pentecost roses, which
Speaker 1:is There are.
Speaker 2:If I was that family growing that would be like you know what I mean? There's just such meaning in that whole process. Man. But at Day Spring, they'd make a they make they'd get a cake, and they'd cut up little piece of cake for mostly for the kids. And that way, they kinda have I I think that's a helpful visualization Yeah.
Speaker 2:That the the birth of the church through
Speaker 3:the spirit. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 3:You know, it's funny because John Stott, he wasn't a fan of that, the birthday.
Speaker 2:He don't think it's the birth of the church?
Speaker 3:No. He thinks the birth of the church takes place with the call of Abraham, you know,
Speaker 2:then and the
Speaker 3:blessing of God. And so he'll he he's written a my favorite commentary on the book of Acts was written by John Stott, and I love John Stott. And What do you think? He corrects you and just
Speaker 2:says What do you think?
Speaker 3:Don't celebrate the birth of the church. I'm paraphrasing. Yeah. I disagree with him.
Speaker 2:So You think it is the birth the church?
Speaker 3:I will say this. When you read the baptist faith message, the article on the church Uh-huh. The one that that a lot of people don't think much about and have haven't probably given a whole lot of reflection to. When you get to the the last statement the Baptist faith in message is the confession of faith that that Baptists that Southern Baptists adopted Mhmm. In actually, it's 1925.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:It's when we embraced it. It was it's actually the original one was called the New Hampshire Confession of Faith.
Speaker 1:That's where we
Speaker 3:kinda borrowed it from. But anyway, it says about the church when you get to the last sentence that the church includes the redeemed of all the ages. So it's a very high ecclesiology actually, particularly for Baptists because we're not known for necessarily our ecclesiology. We're known for our autonomy but not our high ecclesiology. But but so I think that's would probably be a little bit of the perspective that John Stott represents.
Speaker 3:He's an Anglican, but the idea that that the church historically, you know, contains all the redeemed, which I do agree with that. Yeah. But I do think there was a time
Speaker 2:Never thought about that being
Speaker 3:place where the church came into being post resurrection
Speaker 2:Yes. Jesus. I guess I've always thought about the redeemed of all the ages as kind of this, like, outside of time, fourth dimension kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm probably wrong. It's just my honest When
Speaker 3:you think about the redeemed of the old testament, that's what that's saying that the church actually receives everybody now in Christ.
Speaker 2:Yes. But I I see it as, like, a not in our time. Right. On our Kronos time. Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I
Speaker 3:But I would celebrate the church myself.
Speaker 2:Humbly that I am often wrong, and a lot of you know, I've joked Pontius what we did, we did the Apostle's Creed every Sunday
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:At first or at first Methodist Franklin. And so and I have it still in in my bones. Mhmm. But I always pictured Pontius Pilate as Snoopy in the Pilate's leather leather hat and leather they're not leather glasses, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 3:The Red Berry.
Speaker 2:That that Pontius Pilot was a pilot, and it must have been kind of a World War one era pilot.
Speaker 3:You've come a long
Speaker 2:way, young lady. You have come a long way. I still might have, like, a subconscious, like, Pontius Pilot is Snoopy. So when I say that the redeemed of all the ages is some fourth dimension, you know, not Kronos time Mhmm. I could very much be wrong.
Speaker 2:It's just what I've always thought. So man. Anyway, where we where do we go from?
Speaker 1:You know, I think we had talked about doing a couple things. A, what is Pentecost as an Old Testament festival, and what does that have to do with Pentecost in the book of Acts? Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, when you Pop quiz.
Speaker 3:When you read the when you read the Old Testament, you know, the Jews Wait.
Speaker 2:Say that question again. It's like Pentecost is a little like a master's thesis. Yeah. Maybe a PhD thesis. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But go ahead.
Speaker 1:So what does the Old Testament festival of Pentecost celebrate, and what does that have to do with Pentecost and Acts?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Why did they take it over?
Speaker 3:Right. Well, in the Old Testament, you know, when God calls these people into being and he gives them this you know, we talked about salvation history on Sunday, and one of the components that I mentioned or at least one of the eras is just this time where the where it's would just call it the revelation of God. He calls these people into being a covenantal community into being. And then there's this revelation from God because these people don't know who they are or how they're supposed to relate to each other. And that's really what the law is to me.
Speaker 3:But one of the things that the Lord, had in mind for the Jews, was for them to acknowledge him every week with this regular rhythm every week where you would pause from your normal activities and acknowledge that he's the creator of the universe and that you trust him and you believe in him and he'll provide all of your needs. And so there's a time to honor him and worship and rest. And so you have this weekly rhythm of the Sabbath. But he also wanted to own the calendar. And so he designated these festivals, these feasts that the Israelites were supposed to pause and celebrate.
Speaker 3:The most famous one will be Passover, obviously, because of the the story of the exodus. But one of the things that, you know, the the ancient people, if you think about it, they a whole lot depended upon fertility and food. In other words, are we gonna survive as a people and can we feed our people? And so all these gods and goddesses of fertility and agriculture were all related to these ancient people's desires to survive as people.
Speaker 2:And obviously It's almost I'd say primitive, but it's it's your basic needs.
Speaker 3:It is.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's your daily bread.
Speaker 3:So gets woven into the kind of the superstitious, you know Mhmm. Expressions of religion in the ancient world. Well, God wanted to make sure that Israel understood he's the only God. And so, let's pause and celebrate what he's done for you in the past. But Pentecost, celebrating his provision for Israel.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. But also, celebrating harvest. You know, there's there's a sense that that Israel had to come to an understanding that everything that they produced belonged to God. And God, it's it's kinda like on loan to you. And so you have these festivals where you pause and acknowledge what God's done for you in the past.
Speaker 3:You acknowledge the fact that God is providing for you now. You acknowledge things like living in booths and these temporary dwellings, you know, to remind yourself there was a time when Israel was not actually a land and a home. And so Pentecost was a festival where you acknowledge that that God's providing for the people. And so this whole bounty, this harvest, if you will, and also his provision for them in the wilderness. So Jesus dies, during the Passover feast, which I think is appropriate.
Speaker 3:He's the lamb of God. Mhmm. And so,
Speaker 2:well, then Somewhat intentional, one might
Speaker 3:one might think. You know, if you didn't
Speaker 2:know better. Let's just go ahead.
Speaker 1:Sounds like God knows what he's doing.
Speaker 3:That there's a whole new exodus theology woven into the ministry of Jesus, that we're not just gonna be delivered from Egypt. We're not just gonna be delivered from Rome. We're gonna be delivered from from the true thing that plagues us all, and that's evil and brokenness and sinfulness and the judgment of God, if you will. But then God's provision, you know, which is celebrated at Pentecost. Well, so what is when does God choose to give us his provision for us for the rest of our calling, if you will, until eternity?
Speaker 3:Well, the Holy Spirit comes at Pentecost. So the Jews are all in I say all the Jews. That's not really true. Many Israelites are in Israel because supposedly, if you're a male Jew in the ancient world, you'll attend one of these festivals at least one time in your life. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And so they're from all over the world gathered in this highly festive season celebrating God's provision for them in the wilderness, God's provision for them right now, the harvest and all that. And then God provides. And he brings his spirit to us in a way that that if you're paying attention, would feel very familiar with wind and fire and just this this expression of his presence, you know. And so, again, if you're thinking about God's provision in the wilderness
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:That pillar of fire, the wind or the the feeling of the hearing, if you will, of the rushing wind up on Mount Sinai when Moses is up there. The people are down here watching it, but there's all this activity going up there on the mountain and they can hear it and they can see it. Well, at Pentecost, you get kind of a microcosm, but a lot of things collapse there. You know, you've got the judgment of God in Genesis 11, the Tower Of Babel, and now all a sudden you got these new Christians proclaiming the gospel in every known language that
Speaker 1:the
Speaker 3:Jews are speaking. And so it's like there's a lot of theology both old test old covenant and new covenant bound up in the whole Pentecost thing. Yeah. You know? So Mhmm.
Speaker 1:I've I've been reading one theologian and he actually talks about and it's an interesting point that I never really considered is that Pentecost is actually in so many ways the culmination of Christology because you have John the Baptist baptizing baptizing Jesus. Jesus. Mhmm. And he says, you know, one is coming. You know, this is my baptism, but one is coming.
Speaker 1:Was gonna baptize you in fire and in spirit. Right. And so this theologian's basically making the argument that Jesus' mission isn't really fulfilled on the cross or resurrection. Those things are key and pivotal and so important and significant, but his mission is finally, it's kind of culmination comes when he actually pours out the spirit Mhmm. On these people because that's what John Baptist has foretold.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:That's what the prophets have been pointing to. So, you know, you have Ezekiel, you know, the Lord tells him to prophesy to these bones, but also to prophesy to the winds. The the bones come back to life. The winds come and kind of restore the valley. And so all of these images, they point to the life, death, burial, resurrection, and finally, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:And so I think it can be easy for us to think of like, oh, well, that's neat. The church is born, the spirit came, but really, this is part of the messianic Mhmm. Christological promise that's woven in from just the onset of scripture. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:That's what I would think. And I and I love the imagery of the tangible imagery of God's provision of food, you know, God's miraculous provision in the wilderness with the Israelites, the very presence of god with the fire and the wind, and and then the expression of the fact that Jesus said you're be my witnesses to the ends of the earth. Sure they're wondering how we're to do that. And then the next thing you know, they're all actually preaching if they were at the ends of the earth Mhmm. While they're still in Jerusalem.
Speaker 3:What an encouragement that must have been from them Mhmm. That actually God can actually do this. And and the cool thing is 3,000 Jews believed it all on the spot.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You know? And so,
Speaker 3:I think sometimes we also minimize that that it that that, you know, everybody says, why didn't the Jews believe in the gospel? Well, it turns out lot of did. Everyone preaching it at the time, they were all Jews. So, it's a it's a convergence to me of the old and new covenant there. So, that's I think to give John Stott credit, I think that's doctor Stott's point that, okay, the covenant existed, and this is just the fulfillment of it, if you will.
Speaker 3:And so I I get that. And I I I have a lot of
Speaker 1:This isn't God starting something completely brand new. This is something in perfect continuity with the entire universe already working.
Speaker 2:Starting something That's right.
Speaker 3:Brand new, fulfilling what he had said. But I do agree with you, Luke. I think that, you know, I can imagine if I were a follower of Jesus and I had let's say like Andrew. Andrew's a follower of John the Baptist. So he's been listening to John the Baptist preach.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. Has probably met Jesus. That that would be my assessment. My assumption, I guess, that these guys had actually met Jesus some and had a little bit of knowledge who he was. And then you get this word from John the Baptist.
Speaker 3:Well, the one after me is gonna baptize you with the spirit and with fire. Okay? And then you start following Jesus and he does some incredible things. Let's be honest. I mean, you know, obviously, he's feeding thousands of people.
Speaker 3:He's walking on water. He's raising the dead. I mean, sure. But I think they're probably still looking for the fire, so to speak. What does that mean?
Speaker 3:John the Baptist prophesied, and all of a sudden he's dead. Yeah. And now he's raised from the dead. And okay. And I think that's Which is amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Of course. But I think that ties in their question. So are you now gonna restore all this to Israel? So is this is this we about to see all this?
Speaker 3:And and then when Pentecost hits, it's like, wow. Okay.
Speaker 1:This is what the baptism by the fire
Speaker 3:and sea now. You know? And and it changes them. And that's what you know, I didn't take the time Sunday morning to do a whole bunch of examples, but when I talked
Speaker 2:to podcast. Well, you know,
Speaker 3:when the spirit I believe there's an informative quality to what the spirit does for us or to us, and then there's a performative quality because we we we actually live a certain way. But there's a transformative quality. Well, look at Simon Peter.
Speaker 2:Alright.
Speaker 3:You know, Peter is standing in in Jerusalem, fearful of his life, and a a young maiden says, okay. I can you're you're from Galilee. I'm listening to you talk. You're you're not from Jerusalem. You Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Your your accent has given you up. And Peter's like, I don't know what you're talking about. And we you well, the only well, the the only reason the Galileans down here right now is there's a bunch of them that follow Jesus down here. So obviously, you must be one of those I don't know what you're talking about. And so, you know, you got this this bold man of God three times unwilling to admit to a young girl that even knows Jesus.
Speaker 3:And now all of a sudden, what, fifty something days later, he's in Downtown Jerusalem preaching that basically, you all have killed the son of God. You know? Well, there's the transformative quality of what the holy spirit does to people. He changes us, and Peter will never be the same. Now he's still not perfect.
Speaker 3:He's still going to
Speaker 1:He's gonna make some mistakes in the book of Acts.
Speaker 2:Yes. He'll have a few
Speaker 3:theological pieces that need to be placed in his puzzle, if you will. But eventually, that's going to happen. And then he would give his whole life.
Speaker 2:And he's faithful.
Speaker 3:And so
Speaker 2:the end.
Speaker 3:He doesn't run. Yeah. You know? He he he stares Nero down, if you think about that. I mean, that again, these men and and women were completely transformed.
Speaker 3:And to me, the explanation is the resurrection and Pentecost. Spirit. How they're infused with the spirit of God.
Speaker 2:Because I think that's the for me, I worry. We all worry that that we minimize the spirit too much. Yeah. But when you think about the transformation
Speaker 3:In our family, we can. Our tribe.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. When I say we, I guess
Speaker 3:I mean Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Sure. Myself. Yeah. But our our Baptist corner.
Speaker 3:Because you wanna be careful, You know, there's a there's always a deech on both sides of the road.
Speaker 1:I thought that's what you might say.
Speaker 2:I guess what I what I was trying to say there is we minimize it where somewhat I think you could see the story of someone like Simon Peter and say, he just matured enough Yeah. And got enough resolve in his belly Yeah. And then went for it. Right. But that's not the case.
Speaker 3:No. Yeah. No.
Speaker 1:That that's No. They were already under a complete
Speaker 2:And then I wanna hear I wanna hear about the ditches. But, yeah, it that's it wasn't like you finally got it right and then you were good to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of our ditches. We can still do
Speaker 1:that. Okay.
Speaker 2:God worked on me and I'm finally mature enough to go do the thing. Yeah. No. We just maybe you're maybe you've actually learned how to listen to the spirit. Exactly.
Speaker 2:But it is the spirit that sustained Simon Peter at every hard turn.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right. And gave him the strength to get crucified Exactly. In the name of Jesus. Exactly. Upside down.
Speaker 2:Right? He was upside down because he didn't feel worthy. Am I right about that? Mhmm. That wasn't that he just finally got gumption.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:No. It was that he got the power of spirit.
Speaker 3:He's completely transformed
Speaker 2:through Yeah. I think the same way, we can we can, you know, meet I think this is the straw man. I know we're not all like this. But you can get saved because you finally got enough head knowledge to say a prayer and and forget that that's actually all through the power
Speaker 3:of the spirit.
Speaker 1:Upside the mess. Joke.
Speaker 2:No. I know. Right. And then you get baptized through the gift of the spirit. I mean, just the the grace of god through the spirit that you get to even do that.
Speaker 2:And then it's like you feel like, oh, I I've read enough of my bible and I know what Jesus is like enough to act like him. No. You you you read the bible is there because the the spirit gave us the gift of people being able to put that together to even have it in your lap. And the fact that you get to live a life that looks more like Jesus is because he's working on you through the spirit. And then the fact that you even mature is because the spirit is maturing you, and any good act you do in the name of Jesus in the world, including martyrdom,
Speaker 3:is through the power
Speaker 2:of the spirit.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? Yeah. And we can take that whole thing out and build a good case for just, I don't know, kind of a secular view of of human growth.
Speaker 1:Well, it's so easy to, I think, live secularly in our situation. Mhmm. Yes. I mean, we've talked about this. You know, there are Christians around the world who experiences with spiritual things are just normative.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Everyday occurrences.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Our our Baptist brethren Globally. Are much more in tune
Speaker 1:You know?
Speaker 2:And aware.
Speaker 1:Well, and I I I think it's tempting to be like, oh, Baptists aren't charismatics. Globally, that's just not the case.
Speaker 3:Exactly not
Speaker 1:the case. So globally, Baptist It's
Speaker 2:more our Southern Baptist heritage that has sort buttoned us up quite a bit.
Speaker 1:It has. And so I think it's being open to it. And so this is something I've reflected on just in trying to navigate what is my theology, this holy spirit, both because of things I've experienced, but also it's something I've recognized an area I need to grow in. Mhmm. And I don't know that it's because I don't think it's because people have more the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:You ever really have more of infinity? Mhmm. I mean, it's a Yeah. That more plus infinity is a strange concept to start with.
Speaker 2:It's a hard thing to even quantify.
Speaker 1:It's so hard to quantify. You know, I think in Ephesians, the Greek word of be filled is it's a present continuous verb. So it's go on being filled. Mhmm. But, you know, Nikki Gumbel who created Alpha, which we're gonna run Alpha this fall at our church, I'm excited about it.
Speaker 1:One of the things he an image he gave that's been helpful for me in thinking about this is he talks about, you know, if you think about, like, an old water heater or boiler that's got a pilot light, you know, it's that flame. Every Christian gets you know, when they decide to follow Jesus when the the holy spirit comes in, it's like they get a pilot light that's on. You meet some Christians that they've just completely opened up to the spirit and they're just
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:You know, that fire is there and you meet them and they're They're living fueling it. Yeah. Under a completely different source of power. Mhmm. And so I think the goal for us is what does it look like for you to become more open to the work of the spirit in your life?
Speaker 1:What does it look like for you to surrender yourself more to the spirit's leadership? Because it's the spirit of Christ. Mhmm. It's not an impersonal force. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:It is the spirit of God at work in the world is a person of the trinity. What does it look like for you to surrender, to be open Mhmm. And to live under the spirit's power and not try to live out of your own power? Mhmm.
Speaker 3:I think that's the question. It's not more or less. It's how open and how surrendered are you to this. Yeah. I think it's about yielding.
Speaker 3:You know, that that's why I don't believe the baptism of the holy spirit is a second experience post salvation. You know, the idea of the second blessing that a lot of Wesleyan theologians have embraced. I don't even know that Wesley I'd I'd have to do a little more homework. He talks about that second blessing. But many of the groups that have spun off of the Wesleyan theology, of the spirit tend to focus on that baptism.
Speaker 3:And and some of them, the sign is speaking in tongues or some type of miraculous manifestation. I disagree with that. But because I believe we're all baptized Mhmm. By the spirit of God. We have one baptism and I believe it happens at salvation.
Speaker 3:But I think it has to with yielding, you know, as as you grow and learn how to yield to the spirit of God. That's the journey of maturity and usefulness. And but but I think that for for us, also the thing that I believe we fall victim to in the West is that we're very provincial and so our theological conversations so often are very provincial. They're just about things that we're experiencing
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:Ourselves and that aren't necessarily global issues for the church. And and I think we do better when we're global Christians. I do believe we have to address issues that that we're facing. Of course, I I believe that. But I think we don't do them to the if we don't act like we're ignorant of what's going on in the world church, you And so Pentecost to me, is one of the places where we can have our theology kind of washed and cleansed a little bit so that we're not so provincial, because it's just so easy to get locked into it.
Speaker 3:You know, it's kinda like I I can remember having conversations with with folks about the end of time, and there are those who believe that one day Christ is going to rapture the church out and this whole dispensational view of eschatology. And the idea is that once the church is removed, then, you know, the wrath of God is gonna be poured out and Israel once again kind of take its place, so to speak, theologically. And I totally disagree with that. But I remember having conversations with folks who say, well, when the judgment of God falls, he's not gonna let the church go through the tribulation. You know, that God's just too gracious for that.
Speaker 3:And I've been around the world enough to know there are some Christians right now who think we're in the tribulation. Mhmm. That their whole life their whole life experience as Christians Mhmm. Has been persecution and tribulations. If you were to go and sit down with them and go, you know, just don't think God's gonna let the church go through the tribulation.
Speaker 3:I think they would look at you like
Speaker 2:you What are you talking about?
Speaker 3:You know? What is worse can it get? But those provincial perspectives lead to conversations that I think sometimes lead to wrong, conclusions. And so, trying to be a little more thoughtful about being a global Christian and also being more holistic in our in our understanding of the Trinity, I think actually helps us with some of that. Absolutely.
Speaker 3:But what I was gonna say is I think we have to be careful. We always do. Because some people can go to seed on the holy spirit and and they minimize the role of Jesus. And I think that's where you have to be careful. That's why yesterday or Sunday in my message, I I started with everything in Christianity hinges on Jesus.
Speaker 3:The holy spirit points us to Jesus. Exactly. He will guide us into all truth. He will point us to him. And so we don't wanna lose our Christian center, our Christ focus.
Speaker 2:What what do you think happens when we do? What do you see?
Speaker 3:Well, I think you open yourself up to aberrations, you know, theologically. Mhmm. And you become it sounds trivial to say this, but somewhat infatuated with experience. And that
Speaker 2:to me is And not grounded in I the life of think the
Speaker 3:experience is connected to our theology. When our theology grows completely out of experience, then I I think that's when you can you can you can begin to lose your weight a
Speaker 2:little bit. And that can kinda be the straw man when we talk about very charismatic.
Speaker 3:That's right. You can do the you
Speaker 2:can do
Speaker 3:the same thing if you're a completely intellectual Christian Yep. And you think and and I know I have to watch that myself.
Speaker 2:More our error.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's just the and I I don't mean that I'm an intellectual. That's not my point. I just mean that's the way I'm wired. We can You know?
Speaker 1:We can tend to rationalize
Speaker 2:Correct.
Speaker 1:The faith on our side and completely ride out experiences. And our church
Speaker 2:attracts intellects
Speaker 3:It does.
Speaker 2:Intellects because People who have
Speaker 3:that bent.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because we're I don't know. You preach from an intellectual level. Right. To you can preach at an at an intellectual level.
Speaker 3:And so That's where the global church has helped me, to be honest with you. You know, just being with spirit filled believers who who live in very different contexts has had a profound impact upon me theologically and experientially, and I believe I'm more open. I I can remember a time when, you know, I would not have been raising my hand in worship. I just wouldn't have done it. I would have felt uncomfortable with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Looks a little too emotional.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Right? Felt contrived kind of. So it's almost like, you know, when you don't manipulate the spirit. It's not like that you know, Joel Gregory says one time he had a dream where he was farmer was up on the roof of his barn one morning, and he was pointing the weather vane.
Speaker 3:Y'all are young, but I think y'all know
Speaker 1:I know what a weather vane is.
Speaker 2:Yes. I think our listeners
Speaker 3:can hang. Pointing the weather vane. And his wife says something to him like, what are you doing? And he said, well, you know, with all the stuff I've just done, I really need the wind to blow this way today. So I'm I'm gonna point the weathervane to send the message.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And Joel's point was that the spirit
Speaker 2:you don't Did he really have that dream?
Speaker 3:Was it a dream? Don't know. I mean, it's in a sermon. So his point was
Speaker 2:That's a great illustration, I should
Speaker 3:manipulate the spirit of God. You don't tell him where to blow.
Speaker 2:You don't point the weather in the sky.
Speaker 1:Blows where it will.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right. The wind takes it. Good luck, dude. You'll blow right
Speaker 3:off the
Speaker 2:roof trying to
Speaker 3:do that. The same word in in the scripture. You know? Wind and breath and and spirit are all the same word. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, the the the spirit of God is gonna work. You don't manipulate him. And that's what I mean. When I was younger, I would think, I think maybe you're contrived.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that's Manipulate this a
Speaker 2:little bit.
Speaker 1:Really what the ditch is, I think, on the charismatic side is the holy spirit can get reduced to a force that you wield Yes. Like Star Wars. Right. That's just not It's not.
Speaker 3:And that's makes me nervous. Even even you're saying that kinda makes me a little bit nervous. You know? Right. And It's a spirit That's weird.
Speaker 3:Of almighty god. Advocating that at all. Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's reducing God to some sort of
Speaker 2:Do need a bottle?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Almost pagan deity that you are manipulating. That's right. Yeah. And that's that is not who God is.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Our error, again, is we can completely rationalize the faith and almost live as secular people trying to just work out of the power of our own
Speaker 3:Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1:Will and intellect. Yeah. Mhmm. That's our ditch. Right.
Speaker 3:You you can almost be theologically correct atheists practically if you're not careful because you just don't really acknowledge God in your life.
Speaker 2:Some modern writer calls it is it functional atheism
Speaker 1:I think or
Speaker 2:practical atheism? Yeah.
Speaker 3:You could live that way. And that's my Sunday morning when I talked about this performative quality to all of this. We're we're living this. That's that's where the spirit of god is alive in us. He's intersecting us and weaving things together
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:In ways that we couldn't do ourselves. And it's amazing to me how God, just does that. You know, how he meets us at our needs. He speaks powerfully to us. He speaks to us through his scripture.
Speaker 3:And sometimes it's in little ways. It's just a reminder though that he's at work to me. That that's how it works for me. I'll be reading the scripture and I'll go, I cannot believe I'm reading this today with this particular thing on my agenda today and god is just speaking directly into this, into my life because I've prayed and I've asked him, you know, I prayed that's how I'll start the day. Lord, what is it you need to say to me today?
Speaker 3:Give me the ears to hear what you have to say. Great approach to read the scripture. What's happening because I'm not I'm not just going to the scripture intellectually. I I will.
Speaker 2:And not with your own agenda.
Speaker 3:Just what is it? You know? It's your word to us. I'm here. So speak.
Speaker 3:Good model. Kind of I think that's that's the humility of all that, and it's it's important.
Speaker 2:Well, today's bible reading opened with I mean, it wasn't the main bible reading. It was Kurt's opener, but speak, Lord. Sherman is listening.
Speaker 3:And today's a great example. I woke this morning. I'm, Luke and I were meeting with some government officials to have some conversations from another nation. And I'm I'm up reading this morning asking the Lord, Lord, just speak to me today. Open to what you have to say.
Speaker 3:And I'm the one that put the daily bible readings together. I'm I laid them all out.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:But Kurt is writing the devotional guides. And it's not like I wake up every morning and I'm reminded of the scripture that I chose for today. That's not
Speaker 2:usually bad. Surprised along with the rest of us.
Speaker 3:Right. So I'm reading this morning about Philip being led by God to meet with a government official totally out of his control. And I just I actually just started laughing when I read that this morning.
Speaker 1:All you can do
Speaker 2:in those months. Exactly.
Speaker 1:That's totally And that's the holy spirit is so playful.
Speaker 3:Yes. It's it was so cool to me this morning, and I just I found myself praying. Okay. Lord, Philip was faithful in a conversation with government officials from another nation. He was honest and obedient.
Speaker 3:Well, that's who we hope to be, you know, and we we didn't orchestrate all of this. It's been the spirit of God. And so just that kind of thing to me just happens when you're living in the spirit, you know, and how god brings the right people into your life. He he empowers you, infuses you with what you need, and he corrects things in you, you know, which so often needs that's that's one the things that happens too in reading scripture.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 3:He confronts us with things. And so
Speaker 2:I think there's also, like, a challenge, an invitation to get above our cynicism some, because at least maybe that's personal, but I can dismiss a lot of what what is the work of God Mhmm. Pretty practically. You know? And I think sometimes when I can get through that and get a little more like faith like a child Mhmm. It's like, oh, yeah.
Speaker 2:God's at work all around me. You know? Of course, this person would come into my life at this moment, or I would see this symbol that would draw me back to god. Like Yes. If I can submit myself to that a little bit and get my cynicism out of the way, god's at work Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Everywhere. All the time. Mhmm. The spirit of God
Speaker 3:is acting meets you in your weakest moments.
Speaker 1:He does.
Speaker 3:You know? That's exactly what Paul says. He he and Paul would know. You know? Paul had a a many weak moments in his life in areas times when he needed the reassurance of the spirit of God.
Speaker 3:And I look back over my life and think about there are low moments, you know, where things have happened to me that, caused me to question. Am I really supposed to be doing this? And I can I can point to times where the spirit of God has just intervened in my weakness? Sometimes even at a at points where I wasn't even sure what to pray because I wasn't sure what was right. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:And I was confused about what I thought was right. And I can just remember how the spirit has just intervened in my life. It just reminded me that God's at work in my life. And so, I'm grateful for it. I think I'm much more open to the work of the holy spirit than I've ever been.
Speaker 3:And I've told the Lord that whatever it is you wanna give me, I'll take it. I'm not afraid of it. You know, I don't someone Sunday morning after my sermon, we have a young Christian, in our church and, she came up to me and she said, okay. So why didn't you just become a Pentecostal? You've been doing this for a long time.
Speaker 3:And I've been here for the last few weeks and you've talked some about all this. And she said, so you're not a Pentecostal. Why? Why why aren't you one? And and I said, well, I am.
Speaker 3:We're all Pentecostal. She said, yeah, but you know what I mean. And I said, that's a great question. I said, well, let's just never I've never felt completely at home theologically there or even experientially. However, what I have told the Lord is though, whatever you wanna give me Yeah.
Speaker 3:I'll take it. You know? And I only know what it is he wants to give me at this point in my life, but I'll take it. I but I don't believe I will move theologically, but I may have experiences that challenge me. So I'm trusting him with that.
Speaker 3:May it be so. Yeah. I'll trust him with that.
Speaker 1:So Oh, there's so much more I wish we had time to talk about today.
Speaker 2:Hey. Next week, two hundredth anniversary.
Speaker 3:No way.
Speaker 1:It is the two hundredth two hundredth episode of Tell Me More Next Week.
Speaker 2:Anniversary. If we go by weeks Yep. It's the two hundredth episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah. We don't know what it's gonna look like because
Speaker 2:Next week, camp is upon us. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Life. We're gonna figure out.
Speaker 3:Travel. We're gonna
Speaker 2:have it. We're
Speaker 3:gonna have something.
Speaker 1:And we're gonna
Speaker 2:and we're even gonna have a two zero one after that.
Speaker 1:We will.
Speaker 3:We plan to.
Speaker 1:It may be that we do a bigger
Speaker 2:It will be. No. You can name it. It will be.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because we're in the process of figuring out who's actually here That's right. In the midst of camp.
Speaker 2:Camp week is, it's all about camp.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:So we may have a bigger we will have a bigger episode about Tell Me More
Speaker 2:Yeah. But in in the meantime camp. Pray for camp. Our children leave on Thursday. Today's Tuesday, so day after tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And then our youth go on Monday, and it's extremely important. Huge. Valuable. Vital.
Speaker 3:Praise god.
Speaker 1:And then pray for us as we prepare for the World Cup.
Speaker 2:Let's do it.
Speaker 1:Which is upon us.
Speaker 3:It is.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Fbca.org
Speaker 1:summer.
Speaker 2:Slash summer. We'll give you what need to know what's going on around here. Yep. Thank you all. Have a good day.
Speaker 2:For listening to the Tell Me More podcast today. You can subscribe to this podcast on your app of choice, or you can visit us at fbca.org to find out more information about the podcast and our church. Thanks for listening. Have a good day.