Tell Me More

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Welcome to this week's episode of Tell Me More. We are talking in the studio about John 316, the one of the most famous texts in our Christian worldview with Sartre, Denis Wiles, Luke Stair and me, Katy Hodges. It's a meaningful conversation about how this texts takes place in its context and how it can color our life in Christ.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
So join us and we're glad you're here.

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Luke Stehr
Okay, well, we are here and we're talking about John 316.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Just never heard of it. Tell me.

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Luke Stehr
More. A brand new verse. I never heard it before.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
I've looked right over it all these years.

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Luke Stehr
I don't think anyone's ever quoted this verse.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah. Why pass it on there? Why did you choose? Why did you choose this text of all text to preach? Yeah.

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Luke Stehr
And it's all preached from the back.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah. Yeah. Who's this? John? What's this?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
316. To make sure everybody's hold their signs up and they need to know what it says.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
They need to know you. I think you did a pretty good job explaining it so well. I think John 3316 is a fascinating It's like, well, later in the summer, you've got you've assigned text to us. I'm preaching Romans eight, which also is just very familiar. And sometimes it can be a real challenge to preach because it's everyone thinks they know everything about it.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Right. As in there's they're not necessarily think curious entering it with a curiosity. And so I think that can have its own challenges. So, okay, there's some places I would like to go. What do you.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Think the places we will go with Katy in church? Can you take us there?

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Katy, Let me guide us up on the bus, then we'll go. Well, okay. I wanted you to talk, Pastor, if that's okay. About we. You did a very nice job, obviously explaining John 316 to us and giving us kind of some exegesis, some context. But the I would like you to talk to us about where it lands within the book of John, because I think often we quote John 316 and we don't necessarily know where it lives in the original story in which it was written or told.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
So do you mind telling us about that?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yeah, You know, I mean, John, you know, the early part of John, he's he's focused on just the the signs, if you will, that Jesus is giving to authenticate his messiah ship. You know, so he'll even say, like the waiting and Cain and this was the first sign, you know, And so some people will refer to that first section of John as the Book of Signs.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Some speak. So Jesus is engaged in this messianic ministry, and he is evidently performing these signs. And so the word is getting out about him, obviously. But, you know, sometimes it's hard to go back to that first century and try to imagine what life was like in the the kinds of the worldviews that dominated that part of the world and even some of the the superstition and the whole interest in the inn in things that were eternal or things that were beyond us, if you will, you know, the Greek and Roman explanation of the world and all the gods and goddesses, and then the Jewish understanding of God's work in history.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
So, you know, you think about if someone is doing some of the things Jesus is doing, the word starts to travel within the Jewish community because it really wasn't that large of a community. So, you know, these rabbis and teachers and synagogue leaders, since many of them, if they were close enough, went to Jerusalem, at least for the major faiths and festivals, you know, they were all having conversations with one another.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
And so there was conversation about this this miracle worker, this guy, this saying things. And evidently, you know, we have to let the synoptic Gospels kind of help us out a little bit. And you've got you've got some more material about what Jesus was doing in the synagogues. You know.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
That's the other three gospels. Matthew, Mark and Linda, they have more similarity than John, right?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yes, I'm.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Sure. I'm sure. I'm sure our listeners know that. But just a reminder.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
But but if you think about Jesus as in his home synagogue, Jesus is going and teaching and preaching how people are blessing. People are they're hearing, excuse me, it's alright. And they're hearing about him. So it doesn't surprise me that someone like Nicodemus, who saw himself as somewhat of a protector or, if you will, of the the the things of God and the people of God, He he evidently decided he just wanted to go find out for himself, you know, who is this Jesus?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
And I love how the text starts. You know, when when you go back and look at John three, verse one, Nicodemus is is referred to as a member of the Sanhedrin. Okay. So he's one of the rulers of Israel, but he comes to Jesus at night and he calls Jesus rabbi. So right off the bat, Nicodemus, think about it.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Here's this guy who commands respect. Even behind dresses. He would have, in other words, if Nicodemus went to the grocery store, so to speak, everybody would know he's a member of the Sanhedrin. This is not some anonymous person just walking around right in Jerusalem. Yeah, So they would know this man. He comes to Jesus, and I have no idea where the disciples are sitting around listening to this.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
You know, this funny how when you if any of you watch the chosen Dallas Jenkins painted a little differently, he has this this meeting room set up where it's just Jesus and Nicodemus and Nicodemus is sitting at this table with Jesus. I'm not sure how it all played out, but regardless, I can only imagine if some of the disciples were there and they see this guy who they all know is one of the 17 men that rules them, right?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Refers to Jesus as rabbi. And then he says, We also know you're a teacher again, giving Jesus his creative credit street cred here, Obviously, you're a teacher. And then he says, you've come from God because I have enough theology to tell me nobody can do what you're doing unless God sent you. So you're right. I didn't even talk about that Sunday morning.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
I just went straight to John 316. But I think there's a whole lot to take in there about.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Just the beginning of John.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Three, What's even going on?

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah, just so that's I mean, you've just described verse one and two of John three, right?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
I mean.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Boy, this man, Nicodemus, looks at Jesus and says, Yeah, truly, obviously. Yeah, you're a great teacher.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
And you've come from God and.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
You come from God and I'm coming at night to talk to you.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Right? Presumably.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
But suppose he was right.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Because he worked all day and he was only off at night or.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
No, I don't. I do not think so. In my so say my professional opinion.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
I would probably agree with you. I think he's coming at night to not attract.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
To save.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Face. I'm sure Nicodemus could go anywhere without an entourage of people following him, where people know and where he is.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
This seems more.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
I think.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
This investigative.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Tale.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
If you.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Will.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
That's a good word for.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
It, which to me even says something about Nicodemus that to me distinguishes him from his colleagues, because many of his colleagues didn't mind calling Jesus out in public. They were constantly trying to trip him up. It's almost like it's Nicodemus attempt to be stealth, but I also feel like it. In some ways it's almost a statement of respect to Jesus that he's not going to try to trip him up in some public conversation.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Who do you pay taxes to or what's the greatest commandment?

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah, he said.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
It's like.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Obviously you're a great teacher. What's going on.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Here is I believe that. I really believe that's what he's saying. What is the day or who are you? Because my theology is telling me this is not some Greek priest, that that's not what we're watching here. This is someone from God. So and it's very fascinating to me and even says nobody could do this if God weren't with him.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
So, again, it's the.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Whole is acknowledgment.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Of respect. But then Jesus goes straight to the heart of what he wants Nicodemus to learn.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
And he doesn't waste much time, does he?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Just Great. Straight into here's what I want you to know. I want you to know this. When you look at verse three, you have to be born again. If you really want to understand and see what I'm about and.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
I'm looking at it in front of me is at the double Amen. Because I see truly, truly.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
That's that. That's the amen. Amen. Yeah.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah. Amen. Amen. You need to be born.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Again once again. How do you think Nicodemus would receive that? Because he knew what that would mean. I'm sure this is like, you know, I'm telling you what really is the truth.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
And the end.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Got to be born again.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
And that statement, obviously, judging by Nicodemus, his reaction is not language that they use. I mean, it's not like.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
He would have been foreign to Nicodemus.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Well, that's what it seems like, because he says, What do you mean? You know.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Almost like Nicodemus, His response would be, why would a Jew need to be born again when we have been born already? Yeah. And so the only birth that I needed was to be born a Jew. And I got that.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
I let.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Go. It's almost like I think Nicodemus is not being disrespectful, but I think it's almost like, Oh, you mean like, go back in your mom's way? I mean, what is it you really are trying to say to me? And so there's this acknowledgment, I think, of who he is, if you will. And again, this is Nicodemus, his worldview.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
You think about a worldview. I'm going to talk about that summit, Faith at Home with our adults. I think part of a worldview begins with who? Who are we? You know, that's kind of how you begin your understanding of reality. Well, who is this man? Well, this man is a son of Abraham, And and he has been given the responsibility of overseeing the spiritual life of the people of God.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
And all of a sudden he's encountering this teacher that he has to acknowledge. I think I think maybe Nicodemus might have put it like this. You're doing things that none of us are doing.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Mm hmm.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
So who are you? You know, again, Dallas Jenkins is take on that in the Chosen is Mary Magdalene, at least in his version of the story is just possessed by all these demons. And there are people in the community that know it. And in Dallas, Jenkins is version with the Chosen. And some people get upset with him because I think he takes too much editorial license.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
I think he's just trying to provide first century context that so many of us had nothing to do with. Right. Nicodemus in the Chosen goes to the home of Mary Magdalene and he tries to heal her. And he can't. And then he sees Mary Magdalene later on the street and she's in her right mind. And he looks at her and says, What happened to you?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
And she says, Well, there's this Jesus. And he's like, So in other words, he's doing things that I can't do now. Who knows? But he at least acknowledges Jesus is doing things that he knows he hasn't been able to do is probably what I would say. And and then Jesus goes straight to the point, Well, you know what, Nicodemus?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Here's the thing. When I'm bringing in something brand new, something you've never heard of, you have to be born again. Now the kingdom of God would have been, you know, within Nicodemus, his vernacular. And Scott McKnight translates an empire of God, which I find quite fascinating sort of kingdom. And I think, you know.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
What's he trying.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
To do? This is God's point is we don't understand kingdom. That's just not a word for us. That empire sounds more germane. He even thinks it would even have been more germane in the first century. I'm not sure about that. But nevertheless, I'm not arguing Scotland, Not about that. You can't spend more time in the first century though.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
But Colyton still. But when Nicodemus asks him, okay, so how how can this be? And then Jesus. And I do think this is what Nicodemus is interested in. Verse five What? How do you enter the Kingdom of God? I want to be in the Kingdom of God. I'm a child of Abraham. And so Jesus says, Well, if you want to enter the kingdom of God, you've got to be born of the water and born of spirit, which I think Jesus is saying.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
There's there's a sense in which you're born as a human being, but that birth you've already had is not enough. Even though you're a child of Abraham, you've got to have something miraculous happen in your life that's even beyond your ability and capability and it's beyond your pedigree. It's something only God can give to you. And then that's, of course, going to live.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Live. I mean, create the context for finally John's comment, which I do. I do agree with most scholars today that this is John, not Jesus, talking. When you get to verse 16.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah, mine's got red letters.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yes, some some do. Most modern translations don't anymore. You know, it's just an editorial decision. I'm good either way, but I probably lean a little more toward it being John's commentary, to be honest with you. So But regardless, you're still in the Bible. So you know, it's not like the red letters are the ones that matter so much about red letters, don't they?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
So my sense of the.

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Luke Stehr
DC.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Talk, that was DC talk I had that I had that CD in high.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
It is red, it is, isn't it.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah, I would sing it, but you know, I got this.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Oh yeah.

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Luke Stehr
It's been a long time.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
But but that Yeah that's throwback.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Now I also think to what's fascinating to me in this exchange though and I it's hard for me to to to truly ascertain the tenor of it because when you get to verse nine after Jesus says you've got to be born of the spirit and you know, the spirit goes where the spirit goes. And then Nicodemus says, verse nine, Well, how how can this be?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
And I feel like the tenor.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
You know, how do you realize that.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Shift in verse ten? I don't know. Luke I'm interested in what you think when Jesus says, So you're Israel's teacher and you don't know these thing. Yeah, I mean, that feels like.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Is it a quip, you.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Know? Yeah. I mean, that Jesus just kind of.

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Luke Stehr
Yeah, that's hard to turn exacerbating remark as it's.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Or is it more of a So seriously, when you're Israel's.

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Luke Stehr
Teacher you don't even understand it.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Is or is it and so here you are dressed in your regalia and you're, you know, like, like when you go visit, like we were flying one time through Dubai and we get off the plane. Well, all these folks had been on the Hajj. Well, they've all got the red and white scarf. And I'm talking about that. The Muslims wear and wear them very proudly.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
And I get it. I'm not criticize it, but it's like they they're letting you know, they've they've done their pilgrimage. It's almost one who Jesus looks at him because here you are dressed in your robe and your scarf and you don't know that and you don't even know this.

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Luke Stehr
You know, this is the basic.

00;15;08;13 - 00;15;36;08
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Stuff, right? This is kindergarten, almost. And and so it's just I'm not sure about the tenor of it. Yeah. But regardless, he then calls Nicodemus back to the scripture and says, you know, the story of the servant being lifted up in the wilderness that provided the healing for God's people. That's what I'm talking about. Nicodemus is belief in a path that God has given you, and the path is the path of New Birth.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Then the commentary by John God loved us so much that he gave Jesus so that we can have this new birth. So I guess that's how I see it playing out.

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Luke Stehr
And that's good. Helpful context. One of the things I like that you did in your sermon as you walked through, and so if someone in our congregation was listening very intently and memorized every word, they would have memorized a pretty solid explanation of the gospel message. Um, but given that most of our people are not sadly sitting down and memorizing all your words for confession, I'm not one of those people either.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
It's all good.

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Luke Stehr
You know, John 316 is a great place to start. So if you're thinking of, you know, how do you share good news, which hopefully you feel compelled to do as a follower of Jesus.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Right. Look, got these signs, you know, this summer, John 316.

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Luke Stehr
You hold up your sign, someone takes a picture of you.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
And what's this about?

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Luke Stehr
What's this about? What do you say?

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yeah, and here's what you know what I love about it? It starts with the love of God. That's probably why I've made me who I find. John 316 so appealing. And it starts with God's love doesn't start with sin or your brokenness or your inability to do this. You're shame. All that comes because Jesus died for us. But it starts with the love of God.

00;16;57;21 - 00;17;13;15
Dr. Dennis Wiles
And I think what a great place to start in a conversation with someone, everybody wants to be loved. And certainly if there was any hint in your life of believing in a God, I think you would want him to love you. And so I think it's a great place to have to start. Maybe even ask the question of people.

00;17;13;17 - 00;17;31;22
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Well, you know, John, 316 starts like this for God so loved. What do you think about that and what do you think about God's love? Do you believe God loves you? You and and God love this world. He loves the people of this world, everybody in this world. And he didn't just talk about it. He shows you. He demonstrates he's given.

00;17;31;25 - 00;17;51;25
Dr. Dennis Wiles
And he didn't just give anything he gave his son. I mean, he gave that most precious part of him. And and so believing in him, that's the path to life. And I think people want to be loved and I think they want to live well. John 316 has all of that in it. So that's what I would say to our people as you have a chance to to share this with someone, you know.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
So when we talk about life in John 316, none shall perish but have eternal life in English, we kind of it's one word for a lot of things, but in the Greek it's a lot more precise. So can you tell us more about that word there?

00;18;03;07 - 00;18;23;02
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yeah, I mean, the word we get our word, Ian or I own from it. And like I said, Sunday morning words from many times in the New Testament, Scott Ming like translates it era life. And the reason he does that is because he he is dividing the world into eras, which I'm not opposed to that.

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Katy Reed-Hodges
Okay, But tell us more.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
You know.

00;18;24;27 - 00;18;26;10
Katy Reed-Hodges
Help me, help me understand.

00;18;26;10 - 00;18;37;17
Dr. Dennis Wiles
As long as you can, the Kingdom of God to the age to come or the era to come, I guess, is what I would say to you. Scott, start. Well, actually, he would call it the empire, right?

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Katy Reed-Hodges
The empire, the age to come.

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Dr. Dennis Wiles
Okay, Now.

00;18;40;09 - 00;18;42;00
Katy Reed-Hodges
I'm getting there. I'm getting there translated.

00;18;42;00 - 00;18;49;25
Dr. Dennis Wiles
But as I've said many, many times here, this church, I believe in inaugurated eschatology. I believe that this present evil era.

00;18;49;27 - 00;19;08;09
Katy Reed-Hodges
So much that. Did you hear one of the youth? Chelsea was explaining something in the Bible study for the summer camp, and one of the youth came up to her or interrupted her and said, You're talking about integrated eschatology, right? Well, it's part of their vocabulary. And didn't you did it at least one word for that one starfish.

00;19;08;09 - 00;19;09;20
Katy Reed-Hodges
So you have.

00;19;09;23 - 00;19;11;03
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Feel really good about myself.

00;19;11;05 - 00;19;14;01
Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah. So you're a big proponent of inaugurated as this.

00;19;14;07 - 00;19;30;16
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Era that we're in is this present era, this present age and I believe the age to come has been established and is and is penetrated, if you will, and intersected this current era. Right. And we're now outfitted for that final era. Right. And that's the one that will last forever.

00;19;30;16 - 00;19;49;03
Katy Reed-Hodges
And so we're talking about like I know a little bit from taking Greek in seminary and boy, that word escape me. But, you know, there's life that's kind of just like my blood is pumping. Yeah, like more biology bios. Yeah. Life. Right. But this he's more we're talking about. Yeah. Like the life that we want you to have a full.

00;19;49;09 - 00;19;50;18
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Meaningful.

00;19;50;20 - 00;19;51;17
Katy Reed-Hodges
Life. Yeah.

00;19;51;18 - 00;20;14;20
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Everything about you is alive, right? And that's what I'm again, I love about the stakes are so simple, but the fact that if you want to use God's terminology, this era to come, it's it's an era that's forever. And it's not just forever. You actually live forever. So that that's what struck me as I realize that Jews have various views historically about the afterlife.

00;20;14;23 - 00;20;15;29
Dr. Dennis Wiles
So what I was reading, you.

00;20;15;29 - 00;20;22;18
Luke Stehr
Just know, for example, Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, Pharisees did. That was one of the big debates and jail time.

00;20;22;18 - 00;20;43;25
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Conversation for them. Absolutely. And you know, what's really funny is it's almost like the sad cases where the real fundamentalists, if you think about it, I mean, they were they were I think Pharisees were fundamentalist, but actually they were kind of liberal compared to the sciences. So just things were liberal socially, right. I would say just because of their, you know, willing to be in cahoots with the optics, it's like a hoax.

00;20;43;25 - 00;20;44;21
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Is that a brochure?

00;20;44;25 - 00;20;45;02
Luke Stehr
No.

00;20;45;03 - 00;21;08;25
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Cahoots to boots with the Romans, you know. But but they only accepted the first five books of the Bible. So to them, you know, they pretty much had things narrowed down. But, you know, the Jews have various views on that today. So as I mentioned Sunday, I was reading this article in the religious news service over the weekend, actually earlier in the week, rather, from this rabbi answering the question, what happens when I die?

00;21;08;26 - 00;21;27;04
Dr. Dennis Wiles
You know, is there life after death? And his answer was, well, yeah, you live until your children live on through your stories. There's almost I don't know and I don't know if you've taught a lot of world theology and all that or different. The theologies sounded fascinating to me that this was the answer you just live on through.

00;21;27;06 - 00;21;34;20
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Fill in the blank. And I was thinking, now you know, I'm sorry. Yeah, I actually want to live forever, right?

00;21;34;23 - 00;21;38;00
Katy Reed-Hodges
Not legacy. Your memory. Correct. Or, you know, imperfect.

00;21;38;02 - 00;21;41;09
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yeah. Which I'm happy for all of that. All of that matters. But I.

00;21;41;11 - 00;21;42;09
Katy Reed-Hodges
Still exist. Yeah.

00;21;42;13 - 00;22;21;26
Dr. Dennis Wiles
And I think that's John 316. You're going to live this life flourish fully with everything God has for you forever. That's. That's. And what, what an incredible gift. And, and the thing is, you know, we're outfitted for it. I mean, for eternity. God's just designed us that way. I think everybody has a longing for it. You know, Philip Yancey wrote this book, Rumors of Another World, and it's where he talks about hell, he's in this world and he sees this world, but he keeps hearing whispers of something that he can't quite, you know, he tries to figure out, Why do I keep hearing that?

00;22;21;26 - 00;22;29;08
Dr. Dennis Wiles
I get all the bad, but I also get all the good in his answers. Well, there's another world, you know, and he makes it to eternity. I like that image.

00;22;29;09 - 00;22;30;13
Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah, that's compelling.

00;22;30;13 - 00;22;31;16
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yeah, I think it is.

00;22;31;18 - 00;22;33;19
Katy Reed-Hodges
Much better than a turban and.

00;22;33;21 - 00;22;42;06
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, and I appreciate, too, I think. I think one of the things Luke continues to bring to us at our church is a holistic this.

00;22;42;06 - 00;22;42;17
Katy Reed-Hodges
Luke right.

00;22;42;17 - 00;22;54;10
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Here Luke stare a whole holistic perspective on the gospel. I mean sure, on the one hand, there are some facts that are a part of the gospel that are inescapable.

00;22;54;15 - 00;22;55;00
Katy Reed-Hodges
Such as.

00;22;55;01 - 00;23;01;15
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Well, the atonement, the fact that our sin has to be covered. This is just a fact. There's no easy way to tell.

00;23;01;20 - 00;23;02;17
Katy Reed-Hodges
The forgiveness of sin.

00;23;02;17 - 00;23;17;00
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Right? It just it is what it is. But but it's not like God's just mean. It sounds terrible, sad this way, but I think you mean what I mean. You know what I mean? It's not that God is just rescuing us from hell is miraculous.

00;23;17;00 - 00;23;17;28
Luke Stehr
It doesn't stop there.

00;23;18;01 - 00;23;19;09
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Right? That is.

00;23;19;09 - 00;23;21;10
Luke Stehr
It's like, that's good news, but it's even better.

00;23;21;10 - 00;23;26;28
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yes. And that's what I appreciate about you, that it's a holistic statement and explanation of the gospel.

00;23;26;28 - 00;23;27;28
Katy Reed-Hodges
But what else do we like?

00;23;27;28 - 00;23;31;00
Luke Stehr
It's it's it's if we can keep going.

00;23;31;03 - 00;23;39;11
Dr. Dennis Wiles
It's a life. You're going to live forever. You're not just going to be saved from hell. You're actually going to live. You're going to live fully forever.

00;23;39;13 - 00;23;46;16
Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah, it's not just about enough as a grace and mercy, but it's not just about what you escape from. You know what you don't have to deal with.

00;23;46;16 - 00;23;48;00
Dr. Dennis Wiles
As good as that is.

00;23;48;02 - 00;23;56;16
Katy Reed-Hodges
But that's like a but that makes it you're just back to neutral. I mean, kind of right? But there's this whole abundant, beautiful thing that better than anything you ever.

00;23;56;19 - 00;24;02;25
Dr. Dennis Wiles
It's like if you if you rescued a person out of prison, great.

00;24;02;28 - 00;24;14;27
Katy Reed-Hodges
But then they're just standing by the road like, okay, I'm out free. But what? Yeah, no. Well, this is a this is a house with many rooms. The banquet table. Exactly. Oh, and I think give us your best day.

00;24;14;27 - 00;24;15;17
Dr. Dennis Wiles
You know, I think.

00;24;15;17 - 00;24;16;17
Katy Reed-Hodges
People in prison here.

00;24;16;17 - 00;24;17;15
Dr. Dennis Wiles
That I think they.

00;24;17;15 - 00;24;18;14
Katy Reed-Hodges
It's compelling.

00;24;18;16 - 00;24;40;24
Dr. Dennis Wiles
They want they want to people want to live. I mean, well, you can corner a rat and somehow know that it'll turn and fight you just because it wants to stay alive. Yes, there's something in us. And so that that that compulsion to live to me is is is something the Lord just put in us. And it's more than just stay alive.

00;24;40;27 - 00;24;42;01
Dr. Dennis Wiles
I think it's to flourish.

00;24;42;01 - 00;24;57;07
Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah, that's what I think. That's the difference to me between like the bio life and this abundant life in Christ that we're offering the world that Jesus, let's just be a part of his offering to the world. And that's what I think, you know. And if we want to praise Luke some more, I mean, I'm always there for you.

00;24;57;07 - 00;24;58;00
Luke Stehr
I'm here for you.

00;24;58;02 - 00;25;04;11
Katy Reed-Hodges
One Happy birthday last week. Thank you, Luke is when you're older. Well, yeah, well, and but I think that's one of the from.

00;25;04;11 - 00;25;06;07
Dr. Dennis Wiles
My perspective is not saying much, but go.

00;25;06;07 - 00;25;06;21
Katy Reed-Hodges
Ahead. Yeah.

00;25;06;21 - 00;25;09;03
Luke Stehr
Luke Still it means a little less every year. Yeah.

00;25;09;05 - 00;25;28;03
Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah, yeah. Not quite half your age, but it wasn't that long ago. But I think that's one of the things Luke is trying to craft here, too, is that we create community or pockets of community that reflect life in Christ the abundance and the joy and the security of living in community in life and how attractive that is.

00;25;28;06 - 00;25;31;06
Katy Reed-Hodges
My gosh, you get that rolling, right? Who wouldn't want to be a part of that?

00;25;31;11 - 00;25;51;16
Dr. Dennis Wiles
And even these habits. Yeah. Building these habits into your life. I mean, you think about a guy like Nicodemus, If there was anybody who had habits built in their lives, it ruined somebody like Nicodemus, you know? And I think so here's Nicodemus. And it as sense within Nicodemus a hunger. What else would he have come to Jesus that was more.

00;25;51;18 - 00;25;56;19
Luke Stehr
Been so easy to stay with the other 69 That's an introduction verses right Just poke.

00;25;56;19 - 00;26;19;06
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Holes. Exactly. Because you know they could have and some of them did. But the fact that that Nicodemus I think was hungry just speaks to me and that's why when when we went in Rome this year and we you know we took this extra day and kind of went exploring and went to this little town outside of Rome, Octavia, which I'd never been to before.

00;26;19;09 - 00;26;20;21
Katy Reed-Hodges
Nor nor have I.

00;26;20;23 - 00;26;44;12
Dr. Dennis Wiles
And when it's on, it's up on a it's kind of a fascinating town because it's on the top of just a huge rock formation that just is cliffs off of it. And so one of the popes built a kind of a fortress up there. So that the troops that were marching through Italy could not scale the cliff to get to the pope.

00;26;44;12 - 00;27;13;10
Dr. Dennis Wiles
It's kind of what happened. Interesting. It's a really fascinating town. It has this crazy well that where they had to drill down to get water and the pope hired these engineers. And one of the problems they were having was the as they were going down, the the animals were bumping into each other, coming back up. So this guy crafted this some engineer crafted this staircase, this a double helix, I guess you'd call it, go down one side and you go up the other and you don't you cross each other, but you don't meet on the same path.

00;27;13;10 - 00;27;37;18
Dr. Dennis Wiles
That that makes it fascinating. Yeah, it really is. It's a very interesting place. But at the very top of out of it is, is a I guess you and I probably call the cathedral. I don't use that word. There's a dome, as they would call it. And beautiful, very ornate church. Right. It is Hanna used to say the tippy top of the of the rock, if you will.

00;27;37;20 - 00;28;01;23
Dr. Dennis Wiles
And you go inside it and it's beautiful. Michelangelo even went there and studied some of the art in it. But we're we're just making our way through. Don't really know much about it, to be honest. We haven't even read anything about it. I just we just somebody mentioned it to us. We went, Oh, thought it was cool you had to actually ride this little, little tram kind of thing up the side of the mountain to actually get there's there's a modern city about to veto.

00;28;01;23 - 00;28;08;14
Dr. Dennis Wiles
But like Rick, Steve says, who wants to go to it? They're everywhere, right? He tells you when you go there, go ride the tram and go up. It's worth it.

00;28;08;16 - 00;28;14;09
Katy Reed-Hodges
So I will listen to any advice Rick Steves give us. Go ahead and take it right up there.

00;28;14;09 - 00;28;41;00
Dr. Dennis Wiles
When we're walking through this this cathedral, this church, and we come to its most famous statue, which is a pieta, and it's Mary holding the body of Jesus. But behind her is Nicodemus. And the kingdom is is standing there and he's holding the nails from them, from the cross. You know, and and there's I think if I remember correctly, I think there's a ladder there, I guess that they use, but whatever.

00;28;41;02 - 00;29;01;01
Dr. Dennis Wiles
And we stood there and we looked at it and I found it looked silly and I said, This is Nicodemus, you know, And because, you know, we've just just been in Rome and seeing Michelangelo's Pieta, which is, you know, it's one of his earliest statues, but it is incredible those really we've seen it. And I told Cindy, I said, okay, I love Michelangelo.

00;29;01;01 - 00;29;06;23
Dr. Dennis Wiles
I love Rome. This is my new favorite Pieta, you know, because you get to the end of John's Bible.

00;29;06;23 - 00;29;12;16
Katy Reed-Hodges
And that's what we think it is. Yeah, that's that's what I mean. You talk about his curiosity and even the tone of the conversation.

00;29;12;20 - 00;29;14;02
Dr. Dennis Wiles
But.

00;29;14;04 - 00;29;17;10
Katy Reed-Hodges
Knowing what we knowing the end that he does.

00;29;17;12 - 00;29;18;24
Luke Stehr
He comes back in daylight.

00;29;18;27 - 00;29;19;18
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Is about to say.

00;29;19;21 - 00;29;20;24
Katy Reed-Hodges
And powerful.

00;29;20;27 - 00;29;50;01
Dr. Dennis Wiles
In front of a Roman ruler. Mm. And you know, and he's still dressed in all his regalia so everybody knows who he is and he helps claim the body of Jesus and buries it. So I would just say all of us as Christians, when we get to heaven and wherever that works, we need to go. Saint Joseph and Nicodemus, because they buried our Lord when nobody else would.

00;29;50;04 - 00;29;54;26
Dr. Dennis Wiles
And so and think about it. What kind of faith do they have? We don't have.

00;29;54;26 - 00;29;55;28
Luke Stehr
Rivers. No resurrection.

00;29;55;28 - 00;30;02;21
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Resurrection. All we have is a dead Jesus. And that sounds terrible to say, but I don't mean it disrespectfully. But I'm just saying that that's all they had.

00;30;02;29 - 00;30;05;02
Luke Stehr
They were there for Jesus. That is arguably the lowest.

00;30;05;02 - 00;30;20;29
Dr. Dennis Wiles
You got it. And so there's Nicodemus hearing this teaching from Jesus, trying to figure out who he is, believes he came from God, and now the Romans have killed him. And to his credit, he goes and gets his body in, announce his body for burial.

00;30;21;01 - 00;30;27;23
Katy Reed-Hodges
So those those few days are just so fast. I mean, I know that's not what this is about, but what about John three? John 20 year would.

00;30;27;23 - 00;30;28;27
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Have been John 19.

00;30;28;27 - 00;30;50;18
Katy Reed-Hodges
Yeah, but my gosh. Anyway, another day. Powerful, but yeah, just I mean, the rawness of these people and their actions in those times is, you know, we, we will never exactly know because we see the whole picture, but it's powerful, you know, So when you look at John 316 in its context, you've got this wonderful character of Nicodemus, truly curious, at least it seems.

00;30;50;21 - 00;30;56;11
Katy Reed-Hodges
And in Jesus or John's commentary on Jesus at that point, just saying this is what's going on and God.

00;30;56;11 - 00;30;59;06
Dr. Dennis Wiles
And then right after that, in the text, yeah, you get.

00;30;59;06 - 00;31;06;04
Katy Reed-Hodges
John so John Baptist well and John 317 even I mean you know just don't go much further so yeah is fascinating the way it's all lined.

00;31;06;04 - 00;31;14;10
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Up you go from Nicodemus to this kind of I'm a fundamentalist Cindy's favorite character in the New Testament besides.

00;31;14;10 - 00;31;15;28
Katy Reed-Hodges
Jesus, Lucas and Honeycomb.

00;31;15;29 - 00;31;30;02
Dr. Dennis Wiles
The Baptist. This other kind of. Yeah, Rabbi. And then you go to the woman at the well in Samaria. I mean, I'm thinking what a what an interesting contrast of people on two pages of the Bible.

00;31;30;03 - 00;31;34;18
Luke Stehr
So listener, it's time to go read the Gospel of John.

00;31;34;20 - 00;31;35;14
Dr. Dennis Wiles
John the Baptist.

00;31;35;14 - 00;31;45;20
Katy Reed-Hodges
Let me give you a little well, look, a little argument to have, John, is maybe your favorite gospel. I don't know. I'm just saying it's amusing. It's beautifully written. It is wonderfully orchestrated.

00;31;45;20 - 00;31;47;14
Dr. Dennis Wiles
One of my four favorite gospel writers.

00;31;47;14 - 00;31;53;14
Katy Reed-Hodges
Oh, that's so nice. And the definitive ranking is really made it. Yeah, you have a favorable opinion of them. So there.

00;31;53;14 - 00;31;56;11
Luke Stehr
Were others. They did not make the cut yet.

00;31;56;13 - 00;32;15;05
Katy Reed-Hodges
Listener You can read those in. It's quickly obvious why they did not make the cut. You know there's, there's, there's a lot of mystery around how the Bible got put together and then there's not much mystery itself huh. Well it's a beautiful text and obviously it's changed our Western culture. I mean, it's just so ingrained and I'm grateful for it.

00;32;15;05 - 00;32;15;22
Katy Reed-Hodges
Obviously.

00;32;15;22 - 00;32;22;04
Dr. Dennis Wiles
It's yeah. And I'm I'm happy with our people getting their pictures made. Well, I love it. 3016.

00;32;22;12 - 00;32;24;09
Luke Stehr
So keep taking those pictures. Keep sentiments.

00;32;24;10 - 00;32;24;28
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Yes, I'm.

00;32;24;28 - 00;32;33;17
Katy Reed-Hodges
Loving some of them. Well, Luke, anything else to add of our shorter podcast version? But it feels complete to me. It's seems like a good I don't know. It's just a meaningful conversation.

00;32;33;23 - 00;32;42;15
Luke Stehr
Yeah. If people are asking you questions about your science, remember the best way to keep the conversation going is by asking a question in return.

00;32;42;18 - 00;32;45;11
Katy Reed-Hodges
Yes, we want to genuinely know people like me to where they are.

00;32;45;17 - 00;32;46;12
Dr. Dennis Wiles
I like love.

00;32;46;12 - 00;32;51;12
Katy Reed-Hodges
It. Ole. Ole, Miss. Ole Miss. Theological Nugget. At the end from. From our boy Luke stare.

00;32;51;13 - 00;32;52;06
Luke Stehr
There we go.

00;32;52;08 - 00;33;15;24
Dr. Dennis Wiles
Man. All right. Amen.

00;33;15;27 - 00;33;27;08
Katy Reed-Hodges
Thanks for listening to the Tell Me More podcast today. You can subscribe to this podcast on your app of choice, or you can visit us at FBC or to find out more information about the podcast and our church. Thanks for listening. Have a good day.